Brexit

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marlon
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6 months ago

Sid wrote:
6 months ago
That's why I don't get why people oppose thatcherism in the UK but support it in the EU? Marlon?
You're even calling it thatcherism, but blaming the EU?

In short, we're crap in all the ways the EU are crap and enthusiastically support the crappiest bits, like drowning people in the mediterranean.

We have a PM whose only problem with the EU is that the ECJ doesn't let her deport people more easily. Corbyn only wants to take away our representation and freedom of movement. I don't have to support the EU to oppose brexit.

But maybe I haven't read enough about lexit possibilities? Where's the one which actually makes us sovereign without introducing a border in ireland and making everyone poorer?
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Robbo
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6 months ago

Who actually give two fucks about the politics of this clusterfuck how about the people left in limbo or the people in Ireland who may have to deal with the troubles again.
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FuB
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6 months ago

marlon wrote:
6 months ago
Sid wrote:
6 months ago
That's why I don't get why people oppose thatcherism in the UK but support it in the EU? Marlon?
You're even calling it thatcherism, but blaming the EU?

In short, we're crap in all the ways the EU are crap and enthusiastically support the crappiest bits, like drowning people in the mediterranean.

We have a PM whose only problem with the EU is that the ECJ doesn't let her deport people more easily. Corbyn only wants to take away our representation and freedom of movement. I don't have to support the EU to oppose brexit.

But maybe I haven't read enough about lexit possibilities? Where's the one which actually makes us sovereign without introducing a border in ireland and making everyone poorer?
this is not to disagree with your arguments, marlon, but just a small point on this "sovereignty" thing. I feel you're falling into one of those tubthumping mantras I mentioned in an earlier post... the ones that were never true. They even pointed that out on page 13 of the Brexit whitepaper.
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FuB
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6 months ago

Robbo wrote:
6 months ago
Who actually give two fucks about the politics of this clusterfuck how about the people left in limbo or the people in Ireland who may have to deal with the troubles again.
Totally agree on this. It's truly depressing that, after months of lies and misdirection leading up to the referendum, more months of posturing and wankery leading up to them submitting article 50 and two further years or utter stupidity and internal political posturing... it's only now, when we've missed the very deadline we set for ourselves, the debate is hotting up and potentially bringing more facts into the general consciousness. Too fucking late... get on with it and stop making me more depressed you cunts.
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Sid
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6 months ago

marlon wrote:
6 months ago
Sid wrote:
6 months ago
No it's not. Tbf I don't deny wealthy brexiters have helped create the narrative too, but you can't deny liberal remain are also responsible for a shitload of class hatred in the last 2 years. Remainer Owen Jones agrees with me. For 2 years they've talked of only allowing wealthy people to vote, sterilising the poor etc. So let me reword it: leave and remain have created the narrative and both are full of shit.

Well that's me convinced. Great argument. You've really destroyed the lexit put forward by internationally recognised and loved socialist Tony Benn. Bman 1-0 Benn.

How the fuck could the EU be anti capitalist? It's daft. It would have to change so unrecognisably that it wouldn't be the EU anymore. And stop dodging the question - what's the lefts case for the EU? Also how can labour nationalise the railways (one of their most popular policies) when EUs 4th rail package prevents it?

Give me content Bman, not arrogant liberal shite
Well I haven't heard that and I suppose my response was coloured by your first line being something Farage has said a million times.

I have no idea what Benn's argument was tbh, but leaving the EU does not fix the UK. We're to to the right of the eu on most issues. They're not stopping us doing anything. If we can organise for change in the Uk we can do it in Europe.

I haven't claimed the EU are anti capitalist. But leaving doesn't magically transform britain. It doesn't create a majority for leftist policies. Instead it indulges xenophobia and racism and it'll make people poorer. There's no lexit.

As for your last question, I answered it in my response to your other post (which you might've missed because it's on the previous page) - I don't have one, just an anti brexit one.
That just sounds like rhetoric, Marl. We'd have to change the 4 freedoms to which the EU works, which are fundamentally capitalist, and that would require minimum 15 left wing governments all acting at once and no right wingers vetoing it - which they would, especially this new right wing / fascist block led by italy that's coming.

I haven't said it would. But yeah it does indulge racism and xenophobia but only because the left's argument on immigration is a crock of shit. They've not put it out there. But kowtowing to the EUs neoliberalism, and an increasingly right wing iteration of the EU, isn't the answer to tackling racism and xenophobia either. The current tide of nationalism, fascism, disenfranchisement in the west and south america is of liberal making, liberals managing capitalism. Forging an alliance with em again isn't going to solve it.
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Sid
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6 months ago

FuB wrote:
6 months ago
Sid wrote:
6 months ago
FuB wrote:
6 months ago
Sid wrote:
6 months ago
marlon wrote:
6 months ago


Well thats bs. Brexiteers have used the working class line to legitimise their movement, which as everyone and their dog has pointed out is bs as brexit was overwhelmingly backed in the southern middle class tory seats. And that binary you mentioned is used by brexiteers to deflect accusations of racism and elitism. And I reject the anti cap pro brexit arguments because they sound like bullshit. How many brexits wouldn't end in deregulation and tax cuts for the sake of competition?
No it's not. Tbf I don't deny wealthy brexiters have helped create the narrative too, but you can't deny liberal remain are also responsible for a shitload of class hatred in the last 2 years. Remainer Owen Jones agrees with me. For 2 years they've talked of only allowing wealthy people to vote, sterilising the poor etc. So let me reword it: leave and remain have created the narrative and both are full of shit.

Well that's me convinced. Great argument. You've really destroyed the lexit put forward by internationally recognised and loved socialist Tony Benn. Bman 1-0 Benn.

How the fuck could the EU be anti capitalist? It's daft. It would have to change so unrecognisably that it wouldn't be the EU anymore. And stop dodging the question - what's the lefts case for the EU? Also how can labour nationalise the railways (one of their most popular policies) when EUs 4th rail package prevents it?

Give me content Bman, not arrogant liberal shite
aren't you answering marlon there? i'm confused...

either way, and I will first state that I am ignorant as to the ins and out of whatever the EUs 4th rail package is but the rail system in Italy (Trenitalia) is state owned, as is the one in Spain (Renfe), France (SNCF) and Deutsche Bahn (Germany) is, effectively, state owned as well. In Italy (and Spain, I believe) there are private companies running rail services on the state owned infrastructure. Trenitalia is by far the de facto standard and biggest rail service here so, with the previously stated caveat of my ignorance on the matter, how can the EU be stopping nationalised public transport when the biggest players all have nationalised rail services?
The 4th rail package doesn't apply to some countries like France whose rail was nationalised before the package. But EU directive states "the proposed changes would make competitive tendering mandatory for public service contracts in the EU" - so it's coming, which is why Macron is already selling it off, hence the gilet jaunes protests. Macron doesn't need persuading of course, he's a neolib himself. France still has quite a few nationalised industries and decent workers rights comparatively, so he's being ruthless in attacking them, hence the ruthless violence in response.

But lots of EU countries have nationalised stuff, we just sold ours off a long time ago under Thatcher / Blair, hence neoliberalism being described as Thatcherism and modern neolibs like Chuka Umunna Blairites. That's why I don't get why people oppose thatcherism in the UK but support it in the EU?
OK. I follow your logic but, actually, I don't see how this precludes nationalising things. Is this not just making it so that there's some competition over contracts rather than brown envelope stuff and outright monopoly? So you can have a broadly nationalised rail operator but you have to allow other operators to provide competition.
It's naive to think it's not a prelude to full nationalisation. It starts small, "just to increase competition", then ends up consuming the whole thing. As people who are living in Thatcher / Blair's legacy we know that well. Competition is a capitalist thing (and it's a myth - the big dog ends up eating the rest), under socialism you'd have no need for it.

You can’t have private companies profiting off public services because they run it purely for profit and the service / people suffer. If you believe that Fub then we've a fundamental difference of opinion. In healthcare terms the results are deadly. Private companies like Branson’s Virgin Healthcare are buying up loads of NHS services, and ditching the non profitable ones, like a child heart unit near me because there's no profit in expensive complex long term heart treatments for kids. So the unit closed down and the kids were fucked. The NHS then wanted to shut it completely (it's been bankrupted by the tories) until pressure forced em to take it back in house and run it not for profit again. But eventually it will be put out to private tender by the neolib tories / blairites, and a company will take it on if they can see a way of making profit (cutting staff numbers, cheapening the service). That's basically neoliberalism in a nutshell. Branson is pro EU because he and his equivalents in europe want to get their teeth stuck into the public services that are left, and like I pointed out the EU allows them to do that, that's why Thatcher was pro EU and Tony Benn wasn't.

Call me an extremist, a marxist leninist stalinist, but what needs to happen is the NHS and public services in general should be run not for profit but to help people. And what profits they do make should be reinvested in better treatments, more staff, drugs, services etc not to line the pockets of the rich.
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Sid
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6 months ago

I'm pretty fucking sick of talking about this now tbh

Started something I can't finish tbf
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FuB
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6 months ago

Sid wrote:
6 months ago
FuB wrote:
6 months ago
Sid wrote:
6 months ago
FuB wrote:
6 months ago
Sid wrote:
6 months ago

No it's not. Tbf I don't deny wealthy brexiters have helped create the narrative too, but you can't deny liberal remain are also responsible for a shitload of class hatred in the last 2 years. Remainer Owen Jones agrees with me. For 2 years they've talked of only allowing wealthy people to vote, sterilising the poor etc. So let me reword it: leave and remain have created the narrative and both are full of shit.

Well that's me convinced. Great argument. You've really destroyed the lexit put forward by internationally recognised and loved socialist Tony Benn. Bman 1-0 Benn.

How the fuck could the EU be anti capitalist? It's daft. It would have to change so unrecognisably that it wouldn't be the EU anymore. And stop dodging the question - what's the lefts case for the EU? Also how can labour nationalise the railways (one of their most popular policies) when EUs 4th rail package prevents it?

Give me content Bman, not arrogant liberal shite
aren't you answering marlon there? i'm confused...

either way, and I will first state that I am ignorant as to the ins and out of whatever the EUs 4th rail package is but the rail system in Italy (Trenitalia) is state owned, as is the one in Spain (Renfe), France (SNCF) and Deutsche Bahn (Germany) is, effectively, state owned as well. In Italy (and Spain, I believe) there are private companies running rail services on the state owned infrastructure. Trenitalia is by far the de facto standard and biggest rail service here so, with the previously stated caveat of my ignorance on the matter, how can the EU be stopping nationalised public transport when the biggest players all have nationalised rail services?
The 4th rail package doesn't apply to some countries like France whose rail was nationalised before the package. But EU directive states "the proposed changes would make competitive tendering mandatory for public service contracts in the EU" - so it's coming, which is why Macron is already selling it off, hence the gilet jaunes protests. Macron doesn't need persuading of course, he's a neolib himself. France still has quite a few nationalised industries and decent workers rights comparatively, so he's being ruthless in attacking them, hence the ruthless violence in response.

But lots of EU countries have nationalised stuff, we just sold ours off a long time ago under Thatcher / Blair, hence neoliberalism being described as Thatcherism and modern neolibs like Chuka Umunna Blairites. That's why I don't get why people oppose thatcherism in the UK but support it in the EU?
OK. I follow your logic but, actually, I don't see how this precludes nationalising things. Is this not just making it so that there's some competition over contracts rather than brown envelope stuff and outright monopoly? So you can have a broadly nationalised rail operator but you have to allow other operators to provide competition.
It's naive to think it's not a prelude to full nationalisation. It starts small, "just to increase competition", then ends up consuming the whole thing. As people who are living in Thatcher / Blair's legacy we know that well. Competition is a capitalist thing (and it's a myth - the big dog ends up eating the rest), under socialism you'd have no need for it.

You can’t have private companies profiting off public services because they run it purely for profit and the service / people suffer. If you believe that Fub then we've a fundamental difference of opinion. In healthcare terms the results are deadly. Private companies like Branson’s Virgin Healthcare are buying up loads of NHS services, and ditching the non profitable ones, like a child heart unit near me because there's no profit in expensive complex long term heart treatments for kids. So the unit closed down and the kids were fucked. The NHS then wanted to shut it completely (it's been bankrupted by the tories) until pressure forced em to take it back in house and run it not for profit again. But eventually it will be put out to private tender by the neolib tories / blairites, and a company will take it on if they can see a way of making profit (cutting staff numbers, cheapening the service). That's basically neoliberalism in a nutshell. Branson is pro EU because he and his equivalents in europe want to get their teeth stuck into the public services that are left, and like I pointed out the EU allows them to do that, that's why Thatcher was pro EU and Tony Benn wasn't.

Call me an extremist, a marxist leninist stalinist, but what needs to happen is the NHS and public services in general should be run not for profit but to help people. And what profits they do make should be reinvested in better treatments, more staff, drugs, services etc not to line the pockets of the rich.
You've just turned the argument around here, Sid.

We were discussing whether the 4th rail package prevents nationalisation and now you're off on one about how privatisation of public services is a terrible thing. I don't disagree with that.

The fact is that this legislation doesn't prevent a nationalised railway service. Having had a chance to briefly read up on it, it seems to me that it just prevents that nationalised service from being the ONLY service. It also prevents someone like Virgin being the ONLY service too.

If you want to bang on about how that can't possibly work then fine but a case in point whereby it DOES work is here in Italy. Pretty much all train services are Trenitalia. You can opt to pay a premium for an alternative carrier but at no point is that being forced upon you. One of those private train companies is called Italo and they're fairly comparable in service quality and price to the premium Trenitalia services (express trains called variously Freccia rossa, Freccia argento, etc). There is a tiered system here whereby "standard rail" (i.e. slower and less plush) services are way, way cheaper than the premium services (and so much cheaper than comparable services in the UK it's unreal) but they're pretty damned good and I've nearly always used them except when I've needed to go a LONG way as quickly as possible.
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FuB
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6 months ago

Sid wrote:
6 months ago
I'm pretty fucking sick of talking about this now tbh

Started something I can't finish tbf
tbf that sounds like a metaphor for the complete Brexit clusterfuck!
I may be able to fix a forum but I can't fix a fuckwit
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marlon
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6 months ago

FuB wrote:
6 months ago
marlon wrote:
6 months ago
Sid wrote:
6 months ago
That's why I don't get why people oppose thatcherism in the UK but support it in the EU? Marlon?
You're even calling it thatcherism, but blaming the EU?

In short, we're crap in all the ways the EU are crap and enthusiastically support the crappiest bits, like drowning people in the mediterranean.

We have a PM whose only problem with the EU is that the ECJ doesn't let her deport people more easily. Corbyn only wants to take away our representation and freedom of movement. I don't have to support the EU to oppose brexit.

But maybe I haven't read enough about lexit possibilities? Where's the one which actually makes us sovereign without introducing a border in ireland and making everyone poorer?
this is not to disagree with your arguments, marlon, but just a small point on this "sovereignty" thing. I feel you're falling into one of those tubthumping mantras I mentioned in an earlier post... the ones that were never true. They even pointed that out on page 13 of the Brexit whitepaper.
What did they point out? I haven't read the white paper
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