Brexit

Political Debate
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marlon
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6 months ago

Sid wrote:
6 months ago
FuB wrote:
6 months ago
is there really much doubt as to Sid's position on Brexit? i'm struggling to remember a post in the last year or so that wasn't bitching on the EU and, even if it wasn't overtly stating he was a brexiteer, it might as well have been.

not that I really have any issue with that to be honest. over the last couple of years I've discovered plenty of my family, both close and distant, voted to leave so i'm sort of fed up with the argument or bothering to make one. I don't think I really need to make any argument anyway. I voted with my feet many years ago so, despite being annoyed with how things have and will become difficult for me personally, i'm not sure it's my place to tell people still in the UK how they ought to think.
Liberals have created a polarised debate were those who are pro EU are enlightened absolutely-not-racist and intelligent, and those who're against are working class, racist and dumb. They reject any argument that's possibly anti capitalist or even just challenges profit, because their ultimate goal, like the right, is to preserve capitalism. But like I said earlier in this thread, there's a left wing argument for brexit. I didn't know it at the time but I've since posted shit I've come across, and now we're all a bit more enlightened.
Well thats bs. Brexiteers have used the working class line to legitimise their movement, which as everyone and their dog has pointed out is bs as brexit was overwhelmingly backed in the southern middle class tory seats. And that binary you mentioned is used by brexiteers to deflect accusations of racism and elitism. And I reject the anti cap pro brexit arguments because they sound like bullshit. How many brexits wouldn't end in deregulation and tax cuts for the sake of competition?
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Sid
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Posts: 23247
Joined: 6 years ago

6 months ago

marlon wrote:
6 months ago
Sid wrote:
6 months ago
FuB wrote:
6 months ago
is there really much doubt as to Sid's position on Brexit? i'm struggling to remember a post in the last year or so that wasn't bitching on the EU and, even if it wasn't overtly stating he was a brexiteer, it might as well have been.

not that I really have any issue with that to be honest. over the last couple of years I've discovered plenty of my family, both close and distant, voted to leave so i'm sort of fed up with the argument or bothering to make one. I don't think I really need to make any argument anyway. I voted with my feet many years ago so, despite being annoyed with how things have and will become difficult for me personally, i'm not sure it's my place to tell people still in the UK how they ought to think.
Liberals have created a polarised debate were those who are pro EU are enlightened absolutely-not-racist and intelligent, and those who're against are working class, racist and dumb. They reject any argument that's possibly anti capitalist or even just challenges profit, because their ultimate goal, like the right, is to preserve capitalism. But like I said earlier in this thread, there's a left wing argument for brexit. I didn't know it at the time but I've since posted shit I've come across, and now we're all a bit more enlightened.
Well thats bs. Brexiteers have used the working class line to legitimise their movement, which as everyone and their dog has pointed out is bs as brexit was overwhelmingly backed in the southern middle class tory seats. And that binary you mentioned is used by brexiteers to deflect accusations of racism and elitism. And I reject the anti cap pro brexit arguments because they sound like bullshit. How many brexits wouldn't end in deregulation and tax cuts for the sake of competition?
No it's not. Tbf I don't deny wealthy brexiters have helped create the narrative too, but you can't deny liberal remain are also responsible for a shitload of class hatred in the last 2 years. Remainer Owen Jones agrees with me. For 2 years they've talked of only allowing wealthy people to vote, sterilising the poor etc. So let me reword it: leave and remain have created the narrative and both are full of shit.

Well that's me convinced. Great argument. You've really destroyed the lexit put forward by internationally recognised and loved socialist Tony Benn. Bman 1-0 Benn.

How the fuck could the EU be anti capitalist? It's daft. It would have to change so unrecognisably that it wouldn't be the EU anymore. And stop dodging the question - what's the lefts case for the EU? Also how can labour nationalise the railways (one of their most popular policies) when EUs 4th rail package prevents it?

Give me content Bman, not arrogant liberal shite
Last edited by Sid on Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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FuB
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Location: Littlewoods Data Entry Department

6 months ago

Robbo wrote:
6 months ago
FuB wrote:
6 months ago
bman2 wrote:
6 months ago
FuB wrote:
6 months ago
bman2 wrote:
6 months ago


The British government's refusal to just make unilateral concessions on EU citizens' rights helped get the negotiations off to a mistrustful start. It was a shitty move, and not a smart one either.

From what I've seen, most EU governments may end up treating British citizens on the basis of reciprocity – ie granting them the same treatment and rights their own citizens get in Britain. Reciprocity is default mode for consular functions around the world. But a few seem to have gone the extra mile by making more significant commitments to Brits in their countries.

I think it's particularly shit because many hundreds of thousands of foreign EU citizens (if not millions), in Britain and elsewhere, would probably have looked for residency or citizenship years ago if they'd known the compact was going to be broken. The whole point was that you mostly didn't need to.
Italy has at least made a statement - although it was fucking hard to actually find it until I stopped trying to find it by searching in Italian (!) - and they've promised to protect the rights of already registered resident Brits here for the foreseeable future and then they will probably create a new sort of special categorisation for us when things have settled down. Whether or not the bellends in the British government piss everyone else off enough for them to renege on that later down the line remains to be seen.

...you mostly didn't need to. Exactly. I didn't come out here for "a better life" or whatever like a lot of ex-pats did (mostly at retirement age). The whole experience, even prior to Brexit, has generally caused me much more stress than I really needed to have on top of my already stressful existence. I came here because my wife is Italian and that it's. No other reason but to be with someone who tried living in the UK and, ultimately, wanted to go home again. The concept of freedom of movement made that a consideration that, well, didn't really need to be considered that much.
Freedom of movement is a hell of a right to throw away without any clear benefit in return. Or to be more accurate, to take away from the many people whose lives are built on it. It's a decision to quite unambiguously make British citizenship less valuable, with fewer freedoms and fewer opportunities attached it. It seems a very strange thing to do, to me.
Well, this is the rub, isn't it. The morons were so full of the "we won the war anyway" and we're "GREAT Britain" that they didn't consider the fact that throwing away everyone else in europe's freedom of movement would include their own. To be fair, I think most of them didn't even realise it was a concept that came with the EU. They're so full of the "we used to own most of the world" attitude they thought that going wherever they want unimpeded was enshrined in some sort of law of nature and not EU law.
Tell me about it mate.

<removed link from above...>

This twat is the perfect example of your typical thick as shit Brit. Lets get back to being the British Empire how fucking thick and stupid do you have to be ????

I agree with not coming to Europe for a better life, I was first stationed here in the Army and met the misses and despite holding a British passport I never had a say in the referendum. Even better these discussion of a customs union what is the point you leave but have to so what the EU says what is the point I ask, as I mentioned in my other post hopefully Friday its over because its gone on to long now and if I need a visa to get through Holland if I go to the UK then so be it.
Even that's a grey area for me. Surely, if we're already in the Schengen zone, we're ok for free movement within it? I had to go to Spain not so long ago and there wasn't even an opportunity for anyone getting off the plane to show a passport to anyone in either direction.
I may be able to fix a forum but I can't fix a fuckwit
User avatar
Robbo
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Posts: 1206
Joined: 6 years ago

6 months ago

FuB wrote:
6 months ago
Robbo wrote:
6 months ago
FuB wrote:
6 months ago
bman2 wrote:
6 months ago
FuB wrote:
6 months ago


Italy has at least made a statement - although it was fucking hard to actually find it until I stopped trying to find it by searching in Italian (!) - and they've promised to protect the rights of already registered resident Brits here for the foreseeable future and then they will probably create a new sort of special categorisation for us when things have settled down. Whether or not the bellends in the British government piss everyone else off enough for them to renege on that later down the line remains to be seen.

...you mostly didn't need to. Exactly. I didn't come out here for "a better life" or whatever like a lot of ex-pats did (mostly at retirement age). The whole experience, even prior to Brexit, has generally caused me much more stress than I really needed to have on top of my already stressful existence. I came here because my wife is Italian and that it's. No other reason but to be with someone who tried living in the UK and, ultimately, wanted to go home again. The concept of freedom of movement made that a consideration that, well, didn't really need to be considered that much.
Freedom of movement is a hell of a right to throw away without any clear benefit in return. Or to be more accurate, to take away from the many people whose lives are built on it. It's a decision to quite unambiguously make British citizenship less valuable, with fewer freedoms and fewer opportunities attached it. It seems a very strange thing to do, to me.
Well, this is the rub, isn't it. The morons were so full of the "we won the war anyway" and we're "GREAT Britain" that they didn't consider the fact that throwing away everyone else in europe's freedom of movement would include their own. To be fair, I think most of them didn't even realise it was a concept that came with the EU. They're so full of the "we used to own most of the world" attitude they thought that going wherever they want unimpeded was enshrined in some sort of law of nature and not EU law.
Tell me about it mate.

<removed link from above...>

This twat is the perfect example of your typical thick as shit Brit. Lets get back to being the British Empire how fucking thick and stupid do you have to be ????

I agree with not coming to Europe for a better life, I was first stationed here in the Army and met the misses and despite holding a British passport I never had a say in the referendum. Even better these discussion of a customs union what is the point you leave but have to so what the EU says what is the point I ask, as I mentioned in my other post hopefully Friday its over because its gone on to long now and if I need a visa to get through Holland if I go to the UK then so be it.
Even that's a grey area for me. Surely, if we're already in the Schengen zone, we're ok for free movement within it? I had to go to Spain not so long ago and there wasn't even an opportunity for anyone getting off the plane to show a passport to anyone in either direction.
The UK isnt in the Shengen Zone mate, soon it will be in fuck all.
-----------------------------------------------------
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FuB
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Posts: 5486
Joined: 3 years ago
Location: Littlewoods Data Entry Department

6 months ago

Sid wrote:
6 months ago
marlon wrote:
6 months ago
Sid wrote:
6 months ago
FuB wrote:
6 months ago
is there really much doubt as to Sid's position on Brexit? i'm struggling to remember a post in the last year or so that wasn't bitching on the EU and, even if it wasn't overtly stating he was a brexiteer, it might as well have been.

not that I really have any issue with that to be honest. over the last couple of years I've discovered plenty of my family, both close and distant, voted to leave so i'm sort of fed up with the argument or bothering to make one. I don't think I really need to make any argument anyway. I voted with my feet many years ago so, despite being annoyed with how things have and will become difficult for me personally, i'm not sure it's my place to tell people still in the UK how they ought to think.
Liberals have created a polarised debate were those who are pro EU are enlightened absolutely-not-racist and intelligent, and those who're against are working class, racist and dumb. They reject any argument that's possibly anti capitalist or even just challenges profit, because their ultimate goal, like the right, is to preserve capitalism. But like I said earlier in this thread, there's a left wing argument for brexit. I didn't know it at the time but I've since posted shit I've come across, and now we're all a bit more enlightened.
Well thats bs. Brexiteers have used the working class line to legitimise their movement, which as everyone and their dog has pointed out is bs as brexit was overwhelmingly backed in the southern middle class tory seats. And that binary you mentioned is used by brexiteers to deflect accusations of racism and elitism. And I reject the anti cap pro brexit arguments because they sound like bullshit. How many brexits wouldn't end in deregulation and tax cuts for the sake of competition?
No it's not. Tbf I don't deny wealthy brexiters have helped create the narrative too, but you can't deny liberal remain are also responsible for a shitload of class hatred in the last 2 years. Remainer Owen Jones agrees with me. For 2 years they've talked of only allowing wealthy people to vote, sterilising the poor etc. So let me reword it: leave and remain have created the narrative and both are full of shit.

Well that's me convinced. Great argument. You've really destroyed the lexit put forward by internationally recognised and loved socialist Tony Benn. Bman 1-0 Benn.

How the fuck could the EU be anti capitalist? It's daft. It would have to change so unrecognisably that it wouldn't be the EU anymore. And stop dodging the question - what's the lefts case for the EU? Also how can labour nationalise the railways (one of their most popular policies) when EUs 4th rail package prevents it?

Give me content Bman, not arrogant liberal shite
aren't you answering marlon there? i'm confused...

either way, and I will first state that I am ignorant as to the ins and out of whatever the EUs 4th rail package is but the rail system in Italy (Trenitalia) is state owned, as is the one in Spain (Renfe), France (SNCF) and Deutsche Bahn (Germany) is, effectively, state owned as well. In Italy (and Spain, I believe) there are private companies running rail services on the state owned infrastructure. Trenitalia is by far the de facto standard and biggest rail service here so, with the previously stated caveat of my ignorance on the matter, how can the EU be stopping nationalised public transport when the biggest players all have nationalised rail services?
I may be able to fix a forum but I can't fix a fuckwit
User avatar
FuB
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Posts: 5486
Joined: 3 years ago
Location: Littlewoods Data Entry Department

6 months ago

Robbo wrote:
6 months ago
FuB wrote:
6 months ago
Robbo wrote:
6 months ago
FuB wrote:
6 months ago
bman2 wrote:
6 months ago


Freedom of movement is a hell of a right to throw away without any clear benefit in return. Or to be more accurate, to take away from the many people whose lives are built on it. It's a decision to quite unambiguously make British citizenship less valuable, with fewer freedoms and fewer opportunities attached it. It seems a very strange thing to do, to me.
Well, this is the rub, isn't it. The morons were so full of the "we won the war anyway" and we're "GREAT Britain" that they didn't consider the fact that throwing away everyone else in europe's freedom of movement would include their own. To be fair, I think most of them didn't even realise it was a concept that came with the EU. They're so full of the "we used to own most of the world" attitude they thought that going wherever they want unimpeded was enshrined in some sort of law of nature and not EU law.
Tell me about it mate.

<removed link from above...>

This twat is the perfect example of your typical thick as shit Brit. Lets get back to being the British Empire how fucking thick and stupid do you have to be ????

I agree with not coming to Europe for a better life, I was first stationed here in the Army and met the misses and despite holding a British passport I never had a say in the referendum. Even better these discussion of a customs union what is the point you leave but have to so what the EU says what is the point I ask, as I mentioned in my other post hopefully Friday its over because its gone on to long now and if I need a visa to get through Holland if I go to the UK then so be it.
Even that's a grey area for me. Surely, if we're already in the Schengen zone, we're ok for free movement within it? I had to go to Spain not so long ago and there wasn't even an opportunity for anyone getting off the plane to show a passport to anyone in either direction.
The UK isnt in the Shengen Zone mate, soon it will be in fuck all.
No, I know that! What I mean is that you shouldn't need to worry about transit across Holland. It's from Holland to the UK that things change - but that's already the case. Once you're back in Holland, you ought to be unimpeded on the way to any other Schengen zone state.
I may be able to fix a forum but I can't fix a fuckwit
User avatar
Robbo
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Posts: 1206
Joined: 6 years ago

6 months ago

FuB wrote:
6 months ago
Robbo wrote:
6 months ago
FuB wrote:
6 months ago
Robbo wrote:
6 months ago
FuB wrote:
6 months ago


Well, this is the rub, isn't it. The morons were so full of the "we won the war anyway" and we're "GREAT Britain" that they didn't consider the fact that throwing away everyone else in europe's freedom of movement would include their own. To be fair, I think most of them didn't even realise it was a concept that came with the EU. They're so full of the "we used to own most of the world" attitude they thought that going wherever they want unimpeded was enshrined in some sort of law of nature and not EU law.
Tell me about it mate.

<removed link from above...>

This twat is the perfect example of your typical thick as shit Brit. Lets get back to being the British Empire how fucking thick and stupid do you have to be ????

I agree with not coming to Europe for a better life, I was first stationed here in the Army and met the misses and despite holding a British passport I never had a say in the referendum. Even better these discussion of a customs union what is the point you leave but have to so what the EU says what is the point I ask, as I mentioned in my other post hopefully Friday its over because its gone on to long now and if I need a visa to get through Holland if I go to the UK then so be it.
Even that's a grey area for me. Surely, if we're already in the Schengen zone, we're ok for free movement within it? I had to go to Spain not so long ago and there wasn't even an opportunity for anyone getting off the plane to show a passport to anyone in either direction.
The UK isnt in the Shengen Zone mate, soon it will be in fuck all.
No, I know that! What I mean is that you shouldn't need to worry about transit across Holland. It's from Holland to the UK that things change - but that's already the case. Once you're back in Holland, you ought to be unimpeded on the way to any other Schengen zone state.
I am hoping that it is over come Friday I have had enough kick the cunts out no deal and watch the country implode.
-----------------------------------------------------
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Sid
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Posts: 23247
Joined: 6 years ago

6 months ago

FuB wrote:
6 months ago
Sid wrote:
6 months ago
marlon wrote:
6 months ago
Sid wrote:
6 months ago
FuB wrote:
6 months ago
is there really much doubt as to Sid's position on Brexit? i'm struggling to remember a post in the last year or so that wasn't bitching on the EU and, even if it wasn't overtly stating he was a brexiteer, it might as well have been.

not that I really have any issue with that to be honest. over the last couple of years I've discovered plenty of my family, both close and distant, voted to leave so i'm sort of fed up with the argument or bothering to make one. I don't think I really need to make any argument anyway. I voted with my feet many years ago so, despite being annoyed with how things have and will become difficult for me personally, i'm not sure it's my place to tell people still in the UK how they ought to think.
Liberals have created a polarised debate were those who are pro EU are enlightened absolutely-not-racist and intelligent, and those who're against are working class, racist and dumb. They reject any argument that's possibly anti capitalist or even just challenges profit, because their ultimate goal, like the right, is to preserve capitalism. But like I said earlier in this thread, there's a left wing argument for brexit. I didn't know it at the time but I've since posted shit I've come across, and now we're all a bit more enlightened.
Well thats bs. Brexiteers have used the working class line to legitimise their movement, which as everyone and their dog has pointed out is bs as brexit was overwhelmingly backed in the southern middle class tory seats. And that binary you mentioned is used by brexiteers to deflect accusations of racism and elitism. And I reject the anti cap pro brexit arguments because they sound like bullshit. How many brexits wouldn't end in deregulation and tax cuts for the sake of competition?
No it's not. Tbf I don't deny wealthy brexiters have helped create the narrative too, but you can't deny liberal remain are also responsible for a shitload of class hatred in the last 2 years. Remainer Owen Jones agrees with me. For 2 years they've talked of only allowing wealthy people to vote, sterilising the poor etc. So let me reword it: leave and remain have created the narrative and both are full of shit.

Well that's me convinced. Great argument. You've really destroyed the lexit put forward by internationally recognised and loved socialist Tony Benn. Bman 1-0 Benn.

How the fuck could the EU be anti capitalist? It's daft. It would have to change so unrecognisably that it wouldn't be the EU anymore. And stop dodging the question - what's the lefts case for the EU? Also how can labour nationalise the railways (one of their most popular policies) when EUs 4th rail package prevents it?

Give me content Bman, not arrogant liberal shite
aren't you answering marlon there? i'm confused...

either way, and I will first state that I am ignorant as to the ins and out of whatever the EUs 4th rail package is but the rail system in Italy (Trenitalia) is state owned, as is the one in Spain (Renfe), France (SNCF) and Deutsche Bahn (Germany) is, effectively, state owned as well. In Italy (and Spain, I believe) there are private companies running rail services on the state owned infrastructure. Trenitalia is by far the de facto standard and biggest rail service here so, with the previously stated caveat of my ignorance on the matter, how can the EU be stopping nationalised public transport when the biggest players all have nationalised rail services?
The 4th rail package doesn't apply to some countries like France whose rail was nationalised before the package. But EU directive states "the proposed changes would make competitive tendering mandatory for public service contracts in the EU" - so it's coming, which is why Macron is already selling it off, hence the gilet jaunes protests. Macron doesn't need persuading of course, he's a neolib himself. France still has quite a few nationalised industries and decent workers rights comparatively, so he's being ruthless in attacking them, hence the ruthless violence in response.

But lots of EU countries have nationalised stuff, we just sold ours off a long time ago under Thatcher / Blair, hence neoliberalism being described as Thatcherism and modern neolibs like Chuka Umunna Blairites. That's why I don't get why people oppose thatcherism in the UK but support it in the EU? Marlon?

Big capital like Richard Branson want us back in the EU because he wants the contracts to run these services. He's already benefitted from the NHS being opened up to private industry, Virgin run shitloads of NHS services now, on massive contracts. He wants contracts in europe too.

But what's being offered isn't a lexit of course, it's a right wing brexit led by hard right wingers like Johnson and Mogg who want to fuck the economic status quo Trump style. So any talk of a lexit is theoretically. But still I'd just like to know the left wing argument for the EU.
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FuB
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Posts: 5486
Joined: 3 years ago
Location: Littlewoods Data Entry Department

6 months ago

Sid wrote:
6 months ago
FuB wrote:
6 months ago
Sid wrote:
6 months ago
marlon wrote:
6 months ago
Sid wrote:
6 months ago

Liberals have created a polarised debate were those who are pro EU are enlightened absolutely-not-racist and intelligent, and those who're against are working class, racist and dumb. They reject any argument that's possibly anti capitalist or even just challenges profit, because their ultimate goal, like the right, is to preserve capitalism. But like I said earlier in this thread, there's a left wing argument for brexit. I didn't know it at the time but I've since posted shit I've come across, and now we're all a bit more enlightened.
Well thats bs. Brexiteers have used the working class line to legitimise their movement, which as everyone and their dog has pointed out is bs as brexit was overwhelmingly backed in the southern middle class tory seats. And that binary you mentioned is used by brexiteers to deflect accusations of racism and elitism. And I reject the anti cap pro brexit arguments because they sound like bullshit. How many brexits wouldn't end in deregulation and tax cuts for the sake of competition?
No it's not. Tbf I don't deny wealthy brexiters have helped create the narrative too, but you can't deny liberal remain are also responsible for a shitload of class hatred in the last 2 years. Remainer Owen Jones agrees with me. For 2 years they've talked of only allowing wealthy people to vote, sterilising the poor etc. So let me reword it: leave and remain have created the narrative and both are full of shit.

Well that's me convinced. Great argument. You've really destroyed the lexit put forward by internationally recognised and loved socialist Tony Benn. Bman 1-0 Benn.

How the fuck could the EU be anti capitalist? It's daft. It would have to change so unrecognisably that it wouldn't be the EU anymore. And stop dodging the question - what's the lefts case for the EU? Also how can labour nationalise the railways (one of their most popular policies) when EUs 4th rail package prevents it?

Give me content Bman, not arrogant liberal shite
aren't you answering marlon there? i'm confused...

either way, and I will first state that I am ignorant as to the ins and out of whatever the EUs 4th rail package is but the rail system in Italy (Trenitalia) is state owned, as is the one in Spain (Renfe), France (SNCF) and Deutsche Bahn (Germany) is, effectively, state owned as well. In Italy (and Spain, I believe) there are private companies running rail services on the state owned infrastructure. Trenitalia is by far the de facto standard and biggest rail service here so, with the previously stated caveat of my ignorance on the matter, how can the EU be stopping nationalised public transport when the biggest players all have nationalised rail services?
The 4th rail package doesn't apply to some countries like France whose rail was nationalised before the package. But EU directive states "the proposed changes would make competitive tendering mandatory for public service contracts in the EU" - so it's coming, which is why Macron is already selling it off, hence the gilet jaunes protests. Macron doesn't need persuading of course, he's a neolib himself. France still has quite a few nationalised industries and decent workers rights comparatively, so he's being ruthless in attacking them, hence the ruthless violence in response.

But lots of EU countries have nationalised stuff, we just sold ours off a long time ago under Thatcher / Blair, hence neoliberalism being described as Thatcherism and modern neolibs like Chuka Umunna Blairites. That's why I don't get why people oppose thatcherism in the UK but support it in the EU?
OK. I follow your logic but, actually, I don't see how this precludes nationalising things. Is this not just making it so that there's some competition over contracts rather than brown envelope stuff and outright monopoly? So you can have a broadly nationalised rail operator but you have to allow other operators to provide competition.
I may be able to fix a forum but I can't fix a fuckwit
User avatar
marlon
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Posts: 5251
Joined: 6 years ago

6 months ago

Sid wrote:
6 months ago
No it's not. Tbf I don't deny wealthy brexiters have helped create the narrative too, but you can't deny liberal remain are also responsible for a shitload of class hatred in the last 2 years. Remainer Owen Jones agrees with me. For 2 years they've talked of only allowing wealthy people to vote, sterilising the poor etc. So let me reword it: leave and remain have created the narrative and both are full of shit.

Well that's me convinced. Great argument. You've really destroyed the lexit put forward by internationally recognised and loved socialist Tony Benn. Bman 1-0 Benn.

How the fuck could the EU be anti capitalist? It's daft. It would have to change so unrecognisably that it wouldn't be the EU anymore. And stop dodging the question - what's the lefts case for the EU? Also how can labour nationalise the railways (one of their most popular policies) when EUs 4th rail package prevents it?

Give me content Bman, not arrogant liberal shite
Well I haven't heard that and I suppose my response was coloured by your first line being something Farage has said a million times.

I have no idea what Benn's argument was tbh, but leaving the EU does not fix the UK. We're to to the right of the eu on most issues. They're not stopping us doing anything. If we can organise for change in the Uk we can do it in Europe.

I haven't claimed the EU are anti capitalist. But leaving doesn't magically transform britain. It doesn't create a majority for leftist policies. Instead it indulges xenophobia and racism and it'll make people poorer. There's no lexit.

As for your last question, I answered it in my response to your other post (which you might've missed because it's on the previous page) - I don't have one, just an anti brexit one.
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