Swansea v United

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Sid
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5 years ago

madmax wrote:Why is it the fans fault sid? Is it because they wanted midfielders to play in midfield and forwards to play as forwards? If you'd been watching the match you'll know Rooney and Herrera were two of our better players today.

Everyone used to say LVG has balls of brass when he subbed Krul just for the penalty shootout in the worldcup. Where did those balls go now?
Name one top manager who changes their fucking formation for the crowd. You know what the great managers do they convince fans of their ideas with performances and results. If LVG really changes his formations and team selections to the whims of the fans he is just a clueless fuck looking for an excuse for his lack of vision.
Name one top manager who changes their formation for the fans... They all fucking do. Fergie did, or are you forgetting that? He came close to being sacked twice for persuing a bullshit philosophy. He dropped his 451 pseudo Italian shite and went back to 442 in 2006 otherwise he would have been out the door. He said so himself.

You have to, at some point, bow to the will of the fans, the press, the board. It's the nature of the power struggle of being a football manager. If you don't, you get sacked. Nobody is untouchable, not even the greatest manager ever. Mourinho didn't change his boring football so Abramovic sacked him. And since then he has become more attack minded - especially at Madrid, again, because he has to bow to the will of the fans because you can't go there and play his boring shite conservative Chelsea football at the Bernabau, even if you win them everything - the fans and board wouldn't have it

Also if he had balls and tried to force his philosophy through regardless of what everybody thought, you'd criticise him for being stubborn, irrational, not listening, not seeing the problem, you'd become hysterical and emotional

His bollocks are famous. He once got them out to prove to the Bayern players he had balls. But things are different now, and different at United. He mentioned it twice when he first took over, how everything depends on commercial success, and how commercial success depends on success on the pitch. If he genuinely would get sacked if he carried on playing his possession football, then he would change. End of. Because you don't want to get sacked, it's fucking simple. And he has changed. United is a big powerful club, it's hard to steer them in a new direction.
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Alfonso Bedoya
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5 years ago

marlon wrote:Missed the game. By the sounds of it, the football was a bit better than it has been until they got their second, at which point we were absolutely terrible. McNair poor, van Persie and Fellaini terrible seems to be the concensus? Haven't seen many complaining about Jones Rojo today - assume they did alright?

How bad was di Maria really? He got an assist, created 5 chances. After he went off we only had one shot from way out which was blocked. Doesn't seem like he was the problem. Didn't watch the game though, and I haven't seen people be more specific than 'he was terrible' so I'm curious.
Di Maria is a focal point, so he gets the ball a lot, and then you expect him to do something with it...

He was weak, and consistently pushed off the ball... his passing was poor, and though he did make a simple pass that Herrera converted, I don't remember him doing anything else... 5 chances??? by what standards??? cause I'm struggling to remember the team even having 5 chances... at least not good chances...

Di Maria wasn't the worst player... so what... if I was him, I wouldn't brag about that... he was shit...
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Alfonso Bedoya
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5 years ago

Sid wrote:
Alfonso Bedoya wrote:
Sid wrote:But they've worked everywhere else, and won him everything

This is getting a bit England. First you're scepitcal of the new manager's ideas, and you end up making him change them to what popular consensus considers correct. Then, when the team is still shit and you've been proven wrong, you blame trainnig methods, the umbrella, how strict he is, all manner of bullshit

You end up with nowhere to go until you realise... you're part of the problem, you're wanting something you can't have

Capello is a great manager but England were shit under him and his rigid 442. Why did he play a rigid shite 442, was it because he was bowing to the English/FA demands, or was the rigid 442 his idea, and that was the reason he got him the job because it's what we/the FA wanted. It's one or the other. Either way, it got him sacked, because it turns out we didn't want that. Well we do, but we want it to work like it did in 1966... but that's something you can't have

If Van Gaal isn't the man then we got it wrong again

So where do we go from there

I mean if he can't do it, with his european cups, numerous leagues, huge respect in the game... who can
Listen to yourself Sid... you make it sound like Van Gall was doing just fine until he decided to accommodate the whims of fickle fans... he's had a few decent results, scattered around the season... but let's not lose sight of the SUPPOSED world class players who might have had a hand in that...

But by far, the season has been an exercise in utter frustration... we're not just dropping points to rivals... we're getting our pants pulled down on regular basis by bottom dwellers... not one offs Sid... take a hard look at the whole season and count up the embarrassing results...

You talk about Van Galls reputation/experience... hasn't counted for much, has it??? Beaten twice by Swansea... fuck sake, and then you make the comparison to England... as if England can boast the likes of our attacking talent, that Van Gall doesn't seem to know what to do with...

Defend him if you like... it sure as fuck isn't the fans fault we're failing...
Nah it is the fans fault as well. It's yours and mine, as well as Gaal's

The teams we've put out in the last couple of games are much less Gaal's philosophy, and much more the United/common sense philosophy. It's Fergie/Meulensteen's approach of creating one v ones, quicker football, width etc.

It's not Gaal's shorter pasing game, recycling of possession, suffocation of the opposition, complete control (aka the Hull game, Gaal's favourite game)

So the team you see now, and the approach is heavily fan influenced - and it's still shit, so you have to take some of the blame

But the thing is if you appoint of a manager with a clear philosophy, you have to stick it. And Gaal isn't. He's bodging, he's bowing to popular opinion. Rodgers made Liverpool play through it. They were shite in their first season, and scousers were outraged and emotional, like you are. But he rode it out. Same with Guardiola at Bayern when they were emotional and nasty mocking his bald head & jumpers. Whereas Gaal has dropped his possession approach, the 3 at the back, Rooney in midfield - all the things he thinks are good, and given the fans exactly what they want

I can only think in summer, if he's still here, he'll buy more pieces of the puzzle and we'll play more his way next season. And then, like I said a bit ago, we'll see what happens because a lot of fans didn't enjoy the Hull game, they booed and jeered at 0-0, 1-0 and 2-0. They didn't like the football that Gaal loved. But that's a conversation for a later date - if the cunt's still here
But Sid... Van Gall had the freedom... he had the chance to do it his way... he didn't have a full preseason, but he had enough to make a start... he spent £150million... and he's got very little to show for it... the thing is, he's had few good results, and it's from those that you expect to see progress... but we haven't seen progress... you say he's changed his plans to accommodate the fans... the only thing I can see, is he put Rooney up front, and started playing Herrera, which I think most would agree should have been a given anyway, and looks to have been proven right... as far as formations and style of play, that's not an issue if it works... it hasn't worked... so Van Gall has changed it up some, and it still hasn't worked... you're right in that, he needs to find a plan he wants, and then stick to it... but then, he's got to make it work... but whatever formation/style/team selection, he's got get them playing like a unit, not a collection of misfits... it always brings up the same question... what the fuck does he have our attacking players work on in training???, because they don't look like they've ever met... and that's got nowt to do with formations... you put Rooney, Van Persie, Di Maria, Mata, Falcao, in a group, and at their level/age/experience, you should be able to expect some clever, intricate, accurate, inventive football... anywhere, any time...

The criticism of Mopes was, he inherited a title winning team, and dropped us into 7th... well, Van Gall was given a fortune to spend, and so far it looks like a lot of money wasted... he had another window to make changes and he passed... for better or worse, this, is Van Galls team... if they're not playing the way he wants, or if what he wants isn't working, then it's all down to him to fix it...
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just1n
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5 years ago

madmax wrote:
just1n wrote:The vitriol in here seems over the top imo. Some of you need to get a grip. Talk about instant gratification.
Don't think so justin. Do you see some plan during our transition?
Over the course of the season has any part of our game improved? Have we at least tried to blood some young players? Our entire season has been about throwing shit randomly and hope it sticks. Don't think fans want to be champions in one season, just a semblance of some direction would be welcome.
I hear what you are saying Max and I agree that we look awful at the moment.
Possession seems to be the main philosophy and that aspect of our game as improved.
Young players have been given a chance - Wilson and McNair amongst others.
I honestly think LVG had no idea that established England defenders would be this uncomfortable playing in different systems. That is why he has been pragmatic and grinding out results. I think he wants to be able to change systems mid game without players looking lost and confused.
Currently media and fan pressure seems to have had an affect. Everyone was clamouring for Rooney and Herrera to start in their proper positions and since then we have conceded 3 goals in 2 games. People are shouting about this 150million that LVG spent but the Shaw and Herrera deals were well under way before LVG arrived and Di Maria and Falcao were most likely Woodward pushed signings as a carrot for the shareholders confirming that we are still eating at the top table.
[color=#008000]GLAZERS[/color] [color=#FF8000]OUT![/color]
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Sid
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5 years ago

Aye, at least £60 odd mil of the £150m he had nowt to do with. We'd agreed deals with Shaw and Herrera before we had a manager. Van Gaal will have em like, as any manager would. Shaw is more his kind of player, but not Herrera. And that's worrying because you have a situation were non football people are making football decisions. A lot of clubs who're run like that are in a perpetual cycle of shit.

I can also see that Di Maria was a heavily influenced Glazer signing, because at the time we were plagued with this 'United can't attract top players' shite that has followed us around since the Glazers took over and started pissing away our money to banks and solicitors. Signing him killed that narrative dead. So now the Glazers can say that the parasitic way they run the club doesn't hamper our ability to fund expensive transfers. It also looks good for investors. It's as though ever 3 or 4 years we have to spend big in order to prove we can and allay the fears of the fans, shareholders, potential investors.

He's still a shit hot player though, and Gaal has killed his game completely. He looks a shadow of the player we saw in the early part of the season when he looked on another planet compared to everyone else in our team.
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Sid
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5 years ago

Alfonso Bedoya wrote:
Sid wrote:
Alfonso Bedoya wrote:
Sid wrote:But they've worked everywhere else, and won him everything

This is getting a bit England. First you're scepitcal of the new manager's ideas, and you end up making him change them to what popular consensus considers correct. Then, when the team is still shit and you've been proven wrong, you blame trainnig methods, the umbrella, how strict he is, all manner of bullshit

You end up with nowhere to go until you realise... you're part of the problem, you're wanting something you can't have

Capello is a great manager but England were shit under him and his rigid 442. Why did he play a rigid shite 442, was it because he was bowing to the English/FA demands, or was the rigid 442 his idea, and that was the reason he got him the job because it's what we/the FA wanted. It's one or the other. Either way, it got him sacked, because it turns out we didn't want that. Well we do, but we want it to work like it did in 1966... but that's something you can't have

If Van Gaal isn't the man then we got it wrong again

So where do we go from there

I mean if he can't do it, with his european cups, numerous leagues, huge respect in the game... who can
Listen to yourself Sid... you make it sound like Van Gall was doing just fine until he decided to accommodate the whims of fickle fans... he's had a few decent results, scattered around the season... but let's not lose sight of the SUPPOSED world class players who might have had a hand in that...

But by far, the season has been an exercise in utter frustration... we're not just dropping points to rivals... we're getting our pants pulled down on regular basis by bottom dwellers... not one offs Sid... take a hard look at the whole season and count up the embarrassing results...

You talk about Van Galls reputation/experience... hasn't counted for much, has it??? Beaten twice by Swansea... fuck sake, and then you make the comparison to England... as if England can boast the likes of our attacking talent, that Van Gall doesn't seem to know what to do with...

Defend him if you like... it sure as fuck isn't the fans fault we're failing...
Nah it is the fans fault as well. It's yours and mine, as well as Gaal's

The teams we've put out in the last couple of games are much less Gaal's philosophy, and much more the United/common sense philosophy. It's Fergie/Meulensteen's approach of creating one v ones, quicker football, width etc.

It's not Gaal's shorter pasing game, recycling of possession, suffocation of the opposition, complete control (aka the Hull game, Gaal's favourite game)

So the team you see now, and the approach is heavily fan influenced - and it's still shit, so you have to take some of the blame

But the thing is if you appoint of a manager with a clear philosophy, you have to stick it. And Gaal isn't. He's bodging, he's bowing to popular opinion. Rodgers made Liverpool play through it. They were shite in their first season, and scousers were outraged and emotional, like you are. But he rode it out. Same with Guardiola at Bayern when they were emotional and nasty mocking his bald head & jumpers. Whereas Gaal has dropped his possession approach, the 3 at the back, Rooney in midfield - all the things he thinks are good, and given the fans exactly what they want

I can only think in summer, if he's still here, he'll buy more pieces of the puzzle and we'll play more his way next season. And then, like I said a bit ago, we'll see what happens because a lot of fans didn't enjoy the Hull game, they booed and jeered at 0-0, 1-0 and 2-0. They didn't like the football that Gaal loved. But that's a conversation for a later date - if the cunt's still here
But Sid... Van Gall had the freedom... he had the chance to do it his way... he didn't have a full preseason, but he had enough to make a start... he spent £150million... and he's got very little to show for it... the thing is, he's had few good results, and it's from those that you expect to see progress... but we haven't seen progress... you say he's changed his plans to accommodate the fans... the only thing I can see, is he put Rooney up front, and started playing Herrera, which I think most would agree should have been a given anyway, and looks to have been proven right... as far as formations and style of play, that's not an issue if it works... it hasn't worked... so Van Gall has changed it up some, and it still hasn't worked... you're right in that, he needs to find a plan he wants, and then stick to it... but then, he's got to make it work... but whatever formation/style/team selection, he's got get them playing like a unit, not a collection of misfits... it always brings up the same question... what the fuck does he have our attacking players work on in training???, because they don't look like they've ever met... and that's got nowt to do with formations... you put Rooney, Van Persie, Di Maria, Mata, Falcao, in a group, and at their level/age/experience, you should be able to expect some clever, intricate, accurate, inventive football... anywhere, any time...

The criticism of Mopes was, he inherited a title winning team, and dropped us into 7th... well, Van Gall was given a fortune to spend, and so far it looks like a lot of money wasted... he had another window to make changes and he passed... for better or worse, this, is Van Galls team... if they're not playing the way he wants, or if what he wants isn't working, then it's all down to him to fix it...
No Alf, he's spent about £90 odd mil on 3 players, which is one more than what Moyes bought. We also lost 3 top defenders, so don't expect miracles.

But aye I expected the football to be a lot better than it is given the players we have. The forwards are undermined by the British shite in defence who're unadaptble and thick. And that's Gaal's fault too, in that he should have signed a centreback. He tried, he had great targets in Hummels and Benatia. But failed. Or Woodward failed. But yeah I expected the players to have taken on board their new roles better and be playing better stuff. A mix between being more solid than the Leicester 5-3, and the ace attacking football we saw before that game, is what you'd hope for to secure a top 4 spot. But it looks far off at the moment. And with him seemingly abandoning his approach, fuck knows whose steering the ship and what direction we're going in. It's just a case of getting the results and getting that top 4 spot. Then starting again in the summer.
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Sid
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5 years ago

Just seen the goals

We scored a cracker tbf, class football, class interplay

Their goal though, that cunt gets a run on Shaw, but have you seen where Jones is when the goal goes in? He's miles away. What's he doing there. Nowhere near the crosser of the ball or the runners into the box. He's just stood there watching in no mans land

For their second goal Shelvey is unmarked - where's the fucking midfielder tracking him. So Rojo belatedly goes out to meet him to block the shot, meaning Jones has to cover his man, Gomis, which he doesn't do quickly enough so the ball bounces off him and they score
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redzebs
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5 years ago

Alfonso Bedoya wrote:
marlon wrote:Missed the game. By the sounds of it, the football was a bit better than it has been until they got their second, at which point we were absolutely terrible. McNair poor, van Persie and Fellaini terrible seems to be the concensus? Haven't seen many complaining about Jones Rojo today - assume they did alright?

How bad was di Maria really? He got an assist, created 5 chances. After he went off we only had one shot from way out which was blocked. Doesn't seem like he was the problem. Didn't watch the game though, and I haven't seen people be more specific than 'he was terrible' so I'm curious.
Di Maria is a focal point, so he gets the ball a lot, and then you expect him to do something with it...

He was weak, and consistently pushed off the ball... his passing was poor, and though he did make a simple pass that Herrera converted, I don't remember him doing anything else... 5 chances??? by what standards??? cause I'm struggling to remember the team even having 5 chances... at least not good chances...

Di Maria wasn't the worst player... so what... if I was him, I wouldn't brag about that... he was shit...

Dozer says he got an assist, Rooney gets the ball, has a few options open, sees ADM, makes a non fuss pass to him he hits a simple pass to Herrera who takes it well.

I cant wait to see ADMs £60 million collection of assists at the end of the season because Im sick of hearing about them, remember for about three games when everyone was raving about him, one of the assists was a long punt into the box that bounced luckily in the area, in fact I think that was a goal in the end. For fuck sake, Tim Howard scored from his own penalty box last season,

He's a fruit in the Prem, he lets players who apparantly shouldn't be anywhere his quality deposses him, he lets himself get bullied, some of his passing yesterday reminded me of Fletcher against Yeovil when we lambasted the fuck out of him.

I don't know why people defend him so much, look at the players he's played with in the past, you wouldn't know if he was having an off game at Madrid, now he's the main man and he's bottled it.

Hope Wilson gets a run out now RVP is crocked but I have a sinking feeling at some point Fellani will start as a forward, not like we know fine rightly he's being pushed up, but actually start up front.
Well I suppose that's the knighthood fucked.
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swampash
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5 years ago

At least the dippers did us a favour yesterday!
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits...
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Alfonso Bedoya
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5 years ago

swampash wrote:At least the dippers did us a favour yesterday!
How do you reckon that???

We should be more worried about the Dippers anyway... better if they'd have lost...
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