Chump$ki v United

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Twisted Blood
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5 years ago

Anantax wrote:Even with gross underinvestment, Fergie's follies etc, is United really worse than Everton??? Or even arguably Tottenham and Liverpool? Are we really a team that should be 14 points off from Arsenal???

My answer to that would be a resounding NO.

Moyes has got United UNDERACHIEVING and he simply does not seem good enough to turn it around...I think that's clear. I keep hoping that he will prove me wrong, but then he simply doesnt.....
Hard to argue with any of that Tax. As I think Ed said on the Rant a couple of weeks back, there is talent here in enough spots that if played properly in their proper positions, top 4 is perfectly reasonable. Better than Spurs, Everton or Liverpool for sure. Better coached? Maybe not. Watched Brendan Rogers on the sideline of the Villa game last week. The guy oozes confidence. Don't think he is right for United but I bet he would never think the job was too big for him......
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ashleyfuckingyoung
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5 years ago

Anantax wrote:Even with gross underinvestment, Fergie's follies etc, is United really worse than Everton??? Or even arguably Tottenham and Liverpool? Are we really a team that should be 14 points off from Arsenal???

My answer to that would be a resounding NO.

Moyes has got United UNDERACHIEVING and he simply does not seem good enough to turn it around...I think that's clear. I keep hoping that he will prove me wrong, but then he simply doesnt.....
Take RVP out, Rooney missing for spells, Jones missing for spells and Carrick for even longer spells, and I honestly don't think we're better than Everton.

De Gea is a better keeper than Howard, but Howard is solid enough. Baines or Evra? Many would go with Baines. Coleman or Rafael? No clear winner and Coleman may well be ahead. with Rio shot and Vida not the same since his knee injury, their centre halves are no worse than ours. McCarthy is better than Cleverley, Barry is no worse than squaddies like Fletcher and Anderson, Barkley is way better than any of our midfielders, but probably on a par with Januzaj, our wide men are gash and certainly not any better than Mirrallas or Deulofeu. And i'd take Lukaku over Welbeck any day. That's the level we're at now.

Confidence has taken a hit with results, self doubt has crept in with no Fergie and a lack of leaders on the pitch, but by far the biggest issue is a lack of quality in the side.

I don't think there was too much massively wrong with the bulk of yesterday's performance, at least in terms of a game plan. Individual shitness in front of goal, and ridiculous defending from set pieces cost us.

We're 3-4 world class and 2-3 decent players short of being top drawer material, whoever the manager is. Januzaj's development will help, but major surgery is needed on this team.
Steggo
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5 years ago

Did Moyes force Fergie to hire him? Of course not but by the same token did Fergie force Moyes to take the job, again ,no.Moyes thought he was up to the job.

Did Moyes assemble the assemble this team? Again no. But the very least you expect from a manager is a best use of resources. I totally agree with Anantax about underachievement. And that's the worrying aspect. If he can't manage this squad properly how is he going to manage a better squad. I really don't think he understands the ethos of the club and he is trying to use his limited success at Everton as his blueprint.I know the squad hasn't been improved in the important areas recently but there is no excuse for poor tactics,poor team selection etc.Anyone that makes a comparison with Fergusons first few seasons here is an idiot-totally different scenarios.
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Alfonso Bedoya
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5 years ago

FUCK!!!

Moyes is a cunt!... Moyes is a cunt!... Moyes is a useless cunt!... Moyes is a goggle-eyed cunt!... Moyes is a jock cunt!... Moyes is a useless, goggle-eyed, jock, fuckwit cunt!

Let's not forget that, yeah?

Never mind, that the Glazers have pissed away over £600 mill on booze, whores, and fireworks for their banker Mates...

The most important thing here, is to remember that Moyes is a useless, goggle-eyed, jock, fuckwit cunt!

We'll be fine, as long as we remember that...
"Badges, to god-damned hell with badges! We have no badges. In fact, we don't need badges. I don't have to show you any stinking badges, you god-damned cabrón and ching' tu madre! Come out from that shit-hole of yours. I have to speak to you."
Neil
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5 years ago

It's only going to get tougher because we're up against clubs with more spending power and better managers. Our squad is poor, but it is more lopsided than all-out poor to be honest, with midfield being our biggest weakness by far. G Neville said on Sky yesterday you should get the best out of what you have, with signings being a last resort. In our case, I can't see any signings having a magical effect unless we totally change our tactics as well.

What seems to be the biggest factor is how the team is being asked to play, more often than not in a strict 4-4-2 and with the sole tactic of getting the ball in the box, from deep crosses if necessary... so that means not often attempting to get in behind defences centrally and not faffing around with any fancy passing stuff in the centre either, we literally don't have much play going through the centre at all. It's totally predictable to play against us, which is why all of the half decent teams we've played have either beaten us or been relatively untroubled by us. Missing Rooney and/or Van Persie has been a factor but there have been matches even with both of them starting when our quality of play has been very poor.

Remember the days of Kanchelskis, Ince, Keane, Giggs in midfield? That was a dynamic, high tempo midfield if ever there was one. If we had cryogenically frozen those 4 players from 1994 and brought them in now, then our current tactics might just be working. But right now, a strict 4-4-2 absolutely does not get the best out of the best players in our squad. We only have one good midfielder who could play in a central two (Carrick, considering Fletcher doesn't seem to be back to full fitness yet) and Januzaj's best position is probably not as a left winger, so our midfield is only going to operate at maximum 50% potential, meaning that our strikers are consistently getting very poor service. We have arguably the best set of 4 strikers in the league but you wouldn't know it from how awful our midfield creativity is. Look at how many chances City and Arsenal create, for example.

All of our best creative players have either left the club (Scholes) or are out of form / marginalised / demotivated (Nani, Kagawa), with Januzaj the only one who is performing - we are literally going round in circles with current tactics, we're going nowhere. Don't the coaches see what's happening? Are they smart enough and brave enough to deploy the players differently? Can British coaches take control and put a bit of flair into the team's play? I think British coaches are good for defensive coaching and work rate / fitness but little else, can't think of many exceptions to this. Witness our broader tactical scope with Queiroz and Meulensteen involved in the coaching.

If Moyes wants us playing a strict 4-4-2 at all costs then we'll need 1 or 2 years and plenty of signings to make that work, we would need a new left back (probably), a new right winger and a new central midfielder. In the interim, how on earth are we going to get good performances and results with a team setup that doesn't suit this bunch of players? Are we literally saying, it's alright we'll just wait 2 years then we'll be quite good?

If our coaches went into other clubs and shoehorned all their players into 4-4-2 and brainwashed them into only attacking wide and putting crosses in, then at most clubs it would not get the best out of their players and they would underachieve. Some squads are just not suited to playing certain systems.

This is exactly what is happening to us at the moment. Our current squad in this current PL season is probably worth an absolute maximum of 75 points (89 last time was miraculous, and this season is harder with many teams stronger than before), but our current trajectory will push us into the 60 to 65 points range.
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ashleyfuckingyoung
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5 years ago

I think we'll stay up without too much bother.

And at least we have an official noodle partner now. Massive statement of intent, that.
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Alfonso Bedoya
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5 years ago

ashleyfuckingyoung wrote:
Anantax wrote:Even with gross underinvestment, Fergie's follies etc, is United really worse than Everton??? Or even arguably Tottenham and Liverpool? Are we really a team that should be 14 points off from Arsenal???

My answer to that would be a resounding NO.

Moyes has got United UNDERACHIEVING and he simply does not seem good enough to turn it around...I think that's clear. I keep hoping that he will prove me wrong, but then he simply doesnt.....
Take RVP out, Rooney missing for spells, Jones missing for spells and Carrick for even longer spells, and I honestly don't think we're better than Everton.

De Gea is a better keeper than Howard, but Howard is solid enough. Baines or Evra? Many would go with Baines. Coleman or Rafael? No clear winner and Coleman may well be ahead. with Rio shot and Vida not the same since his knee injury, their centre halves are no worse than ours. McCarthy is better than Cleverley, Barry is no worse than squaddies like Fletcher and Anderson, Barkley is way better than any of our midfielders, but probably on a par with Januzaj, our wide men are gash and certainly not any better than Mirrallas or Deulofeu. And i'd take Lukaku over Welbeck any day. That's the level we're at now.

Confidence has taken a hit with results, self doubt has crept in with no Fergie and a lack of leaders on the pitch, but by far the biggest issue is a lack of quality in the side.

I don't think there was too much massively wrong with the bulk of yesterday's performance, at least in terms of a game plan. Individual shitness in front of goal, and ridiculous defending from set pieces cost us.

We're 3-4 world class and 2-3 decent players short of being top drawer material, whoever the manager is. Januzaj's development will help, but major surgery is needed on this team.
I think this is exactly right, and the main reason people can't/won't see the rot.

Here we are languishing down with the midtable dross, and everyone is thinking this is wrong, because Ferguson won with this team last year, and surely we're better than the likes of Spurs, Everton, Liverpool, Newcastle, and so on...

Why?

Look hard and objectively at United... the only thing that separates United from being a true midtable outfit is a couple of truly world class players.

Take away just Rooney and Van Persie, and then tell me we have any right to expect better than 7th/8th place... Arsenal, City, Chelsea are miles better than we are, and without Rooney and Van Persie, we're a worse side than Liverpool and Spurs... that alone puts us 6th.

United is a rubbish midtable team now, that has only been getting by on the brilliance of a few players, and the drive of Ferguson...

Take a long hard look at United and see it for what it is... and then ask whose fault it is that we're rubbish.
"Badges, to god-damned hell with badges! We have no badges. In fact, we don't need badges. I don't have to show you any stinking badges, you god-damned cabrón and ching' tu madre! Come out from that shit-hole of yours. I have to speak to you."
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ashleyfuckingyoung
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5 years ago

Absolutely Alf. Factor in as well, that City, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool have all improved. We'd have fallen behind if we'd stayed still, but we've gone backwards. For 3 years before this one, I don't think any of those sides were as strong as they are now, which greatly helped our team when it came to competing at the top. City often lacked any real sense of identity under Mancini and were semi-permanently troubled by off field dramas, Chelsea went through a wave of managers, Arsenal have been galvanised by Ozil and a Giroud that's settled into the premiership now, Rodgers has had some time to improve things at Liverpool and recover from the mess created by Hodgson and Dalglish.

And it's not just injuries to RVP, Rooney and Carrick that make this squad weaker than last season. Giggs and Rio are another year older, and its telling in their performance. Scholesy isn't here and even at 37 or whatever he was, 30 minutes against the riff raff was often enough to give us just that bit of control to win games in those spells.

What's happening now has been coming for a while. Having a new manager who's probably out of his depth, is just exposing the flaws in a more dramatic way.

I may be alone, but I've not yet given up hope of Moyes doing a decent job if he's allowed to grow into it and backed very heavily in the market. But he won't be, and the Glazers will be delighted if focus for results is aimed at Moyes and not their ownership.
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lkhmffsstopmovingabout
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5 years ago

alf if our squad is only the 7th odd best in the league and we are seventh now why do you think moyles isn't up to the job, by your reckoning he's got us to about par at this point
lkhm

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lars072
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5 years ago

Didn't watch the match and instead spent the evening and next morning in bed with a rather hot and desirable girl. SO glad I made that decision!

But what has happened to my United...
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