vs Stoke

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lars072
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6 years ago

You think DM will play Kagawa as the no 10 behind RVP or Rooney? Never happen
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RobDiablo
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6 years ago

Twisted Blood wrote:Don't think Kags is off unless he has a strop. I think Moyes may actually be under some pressure to play him hence the "people keep telling me how good he is" quote from the Sociedad game. That's 2 starts in a row. Let's have some optimism here.
There's no reason to be optimistic if Kagawa's starts are going to continue to be on the left. First of all, that position should be Januzaj's, whose name should be second on the team sheet after de Gea's. Why would we leave him out the first XI if we don't have to? Secondly, Kagawa is starting to do what Park did when played out on the left: drift into the middle in the attacking third, leaving Evra on his own in both attack and defense. Adnan may not set the world alight as a defender on the left, but his presence there stretches the defense, leaving fewer players to collapse on our strikers in the center. He might even draw enough attention to his side to give Valencia some room on the other wing.
Calvino
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6 years ago

marlon wrote:Kagawa's not the problem. Problem is playing Rooney and van Persie as strikers. The only time we've played decent football over the last few years has been when Rooney's dropped deeper and got involved in the buildup. If Rooney's demanding to be a striker then it's not going to work. We need an no. 10. Doesn't matter if it's Rooney or Kagawa - someone's got to do it.

Best thing that could happen to us right now is for one of Rooney or van Persie to get injured (provided we then don't stick to 442 with Hernandez and Welbeck).
Absolutely agree with this man. We have to stop this twin strike force rubbish. It makes us light in midfield. Kagawa should only start on the left as part of a front three not a straight line midfield quartet.
lars072
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6 years ago

A couple more interesting things after this match...

1. We are bottom of the fair play table with 19 yellow cards. When was the last time that happened?

2. We miss and need a fit and firing Nemanja Vidic.

3. Smalling should never play RB again - Jones too. Where is Rafael?

4. Januzaj needs to be a regular starter.

5. Nani's UNited career is over after that performance and the lambasting he got from the crowd.

6. Rooney is the only guy who might save our season. Better hope he stays fit.

7. DM will never play Kagawa as the no. 10 and he will never fit in at United.

8. DDG is top 5 keepers in the world but BArca will poach him next summer when Valdes leaves. Damn...
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RobDiablo
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6 years ago

lars072 wrote:1. We are bottom of the fair play table with 19 yellow cards. When was the last time that happened?
That does surprise me. I would have expected Stoke to be there, on today’s performance alone.
lars072 wrote:2. We miss and need a fit and firing Nemanja Vidic.
Although he is still better than the others, age and injuries are starting to put him in that “we need the younger version of” category that Giggs has occupied for some time now.
lars072 wrote:3. Smalling should never play RB again - Jones too. Where is Rafael?
How many times does Smalling have to fail at right back before he is no longer considers an option there? I imagine Rafa missed out for reasons of height. It’s like some kind of physical variant of money ball: choosing players for their physique rather than their ability.
lars072 wrote:4. Januzaj needs to be a regular starter.
I agree, but where will Kagawa play?
lars072 wrote:5. Nani's UNited career is over after that performance and the lambasting he got from the crowd.
I find his five year contract extension as puzzling as anything that’s happened at United since Bebe signed.
lars072 wrote:6. Rooney is the only guy who might save our season. Better hope he stays fit.
Not entirely true. You’re forgetting de Gea and Januzaj. Also, if Rooney were injured, Kagawa might play behind RvP, and the quality of service could just reignite the Dutchman.
lars072 wrote:7. DM will never play Kagawa as the no. 10 and he will never fit in at United.
Probably true, but see above.
lars072 wrote:8. DDG is top 5 keepers in the world but BArca will poach him next summer when Valdes leaves. Damn...
Let’s hope they don’t take Januzaj at the same time.
Bill2
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6 years ago

I went to the game and what did stand out was the need to change our formation. 442 or 4411 just doesn't cut it. When Rooney dropped deeper later on almost next to Carrick is when we actually penetrated the Stoke defence. Previously their two banks of four nullified our attacks.

Moyes has to try a 4-2-3-1 against Norwich. Apart from that Januzaj made a clear difference when he came on. Some people seem to have criticised Smalling but I thought he had a decent game. He would definitely better centre back though instead of Jones.

Cleverley, Nani and Jones were poor. Especially the first two.

Happy to see Moyes realising that we operate better we when go at teams attacking aggressively.

Still worry that we might not even make the top 6 though.
Neil
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6 years ago

I was at the game and was aghast at so many of the things that were happening, in summary:

- The overriding element of so many of the dire performances this season is that the players seem to be getting tactically put into a straitjacket of: 2 deep sitting central midfielders, 2 strikers pushed right up, 2 wide players instructed to tuck in, and 2 full backs instructed to provide the main width in the final third. The main aim in the final third seems to be simple: cross the ball into the box, usually regardless of other players' positioning supporting this decision making.

- Someone in the crowd yesterday summed it up for everyone... "DO SOMETHING F****** DIFFERENT - YOU'VE NOT WON ONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - indeed a United player scarcely won a high ball all game in their box against a physically imposing set of Stoke players. Well duh... what's the point of continuing to launch crosses into the box when it isn't working, it doesn't make any sense.

- There was no variation in the tactics set out yesterday by Moyes and his coaching staff, when Hernandez came on, it was still 4-4-2 because Rooney dropped back into midfield next to Michael Carrick. The only reason United got the 2 late goals is because Stoke defended badly at one corner, and then late on Walters was tracking back against Evra and was too tired to block the cross coming in.

- There was no fluency, no urgency and no tempo to the passing. More specifically, occasional good passing moves seem to come from improvisation or 2 players coincidentally finding themselves near to each other and putting a half decent move together (e.g. Rooney and Kagawa). WHAT THE HELL ARE THE COACHES DOING WITH THESE PLAYERS... After close to 4 months with the squad, so many players seem to have gone backwards and there is little or no cohesion between them on the pitch. Objectively, the fact that none of our current coaches have coached at a top club before seems to be showing itself. In pure coaching terms could Moyes compare to Meulensteen or Queiroz? Do British coaches have the level of technical understanding and variation to make a difference in the modern game?

- This has been mentioned many times by others on here but Rooney is causing some problems for the overall team despite putting in good performances. He is not playing the Number 10 role, instead he's acting like he doesn't want to do the work of that role, he just wants to play striker instead and chase the glory of scoring goals. Effectively Rooney and Van Persie are pushed right up, this coupled with the 2 central midfielders seemingly being instructed to sit deep means that there is a creative chasm in the centre between the 2 areas. This is exacerbating the lack of fluency in the team.

- Chris Smalling is not a right back and probably never will be, but it's not his fault he's being played out of position. Yesterday we needed someone getting forward to the byline to support Nani, but Smalling isn't the player to do that, and it totally killed off our threat down the right. I don't think Rafael was injured, probably Smalling was picked because he's tall and can stop Stoke's aerial threat. It's quite incomprehensible that Moyes waited until 76 minutes gone to change this, by that time Stoke had already been leading the game for over half an hour... so what's the point of still being so conservative? Valencia came on at right back and gave us more attacking impetus.

- Nani was awful yesterday, if someone told you they'd spiked his pre-match water with vodka you wouldn't be surprised, his decision making was terrible and he couldn't even pass the ball at times. This being said, I personally don't support booing players on my own team although I can understand why others did it. It's all about his attitude and motivation, he doesn't seem motivated at all. Being awarded a big contract despite not being good for 2 years means there is no incentive for him to try hard to play well, he is on easy street with that contract renewal.

- There is still talk about Van Persie having issues with Moyes, this is at least the 2nd time it's come up so there's no smoke without fire. If I were Van Persie I would have issues with the coaches as well, we've got the best No 9 in the league and he's totally wasted because the coaches don't have a clue what they're doing. He had one chance yesterday and scored a goal, we didn't create anything else for him in the whole match. Van Persie is getting no service and he will eventually lose his temper again in another match and probably get himself sent off; come the end of the season when we finish 4th or 5th he might consider his options about leaving for another club.
Neil
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6 years ago

I'm not convinced that the current squad has the right players for Moyes' preferred system, then by the time new players are brought in (e.g. the likes of Baines, who Moyes seems desperate to sign) the current group of players will have been continually deployed ineffectively in a system that doesn't suit them. If we had 2 dynamic central midfielders with physical presence and pace then it could work, but we don't, so I don't see the point in clinging blindly to an unsuitable system.

We need Moyes to be adaptable and show he can deploy different options in order to get the best out of the players that we do have. Bill made a good point about trying 4-2-3-1, which I agree with. I'd like to see some more creative ideas from the coaches, at the moment we're just sticking to plans regardless of how effective they are because those are the only tactical setups that the coaches seem to know.

I would put some other ideas forward, mainly in order to mitigate some of the major issues at hand right now:

- Lack of creativity in central areas, and poor passing in general
- Our wingers are in decline, whilst Zaha, who could be great for us eventually, is being frozen out
- We are wasting our time playing Kagawa on the left, he will never produce anything approaching his best form being played there
- We don't have the right central midfielders for us to have an effective duo there

I know this would never happen but developing a 3-4-1-2 system would go further towards getting the best out of the squad we have:

- 3 of our centre backs, probably Evans left side, Jones central and Smalling on the right. Rio or Vidic to come in if they're not injured.

- Evra left wing back, Valencia or Rafael right wing back, then Carrick sitting deep in CM. I would put Januzaj in central midfield with Carrick because I feel like we need his composure on the ball at the hub of the team, he has the maturity and technical ability for the role, plus his surging runs on the ball can drive the team forward.

- Kagawa as our central attacking midfielder, playing between the lines and drifting around to find space. He is a potentially top class Number 10 so can we stop faffing around and play him in his best position.

- Rooney and Van Persie up front

This wouldn't happen because the curent coaches wouldn't be brave enough to try it but it has several advantages:

- Kagawa and Januzaj are deployed centrally, they are by some distance our greatest hopes for creating attacking play in central areas, no one else comes close to them, plus the fact Rooney does most of his damage in and around the box

- Evra and Valencia / Rafael are given licence to bomb forward as much as they need to, this would suit Evra especially who has not been good defensively for us for a while, at least in this system Evans as left sided CB would be in place to help cover that area


I feel like current efforts with 4-4-2 are destined to fail because there are so many different factors working against it, not least the fact that regardless of the formation, the coaches seem obsessed with us crossing the ball into the box rather than focusing on clever passing moves.
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Felwin
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6 years ago

Ok, ok, ok. Lot's of points and many of them I am in agreement with.

But 3-4-1-2 wouldn't work for the precise reason you outlined about Evra. He's forgotten how to defend (forever?). You need to have stunning wing backs for it to work, maybe Rafa will be up to it, but ironically we would probably need Baines on the other side for it to even start to be effective.

Playing Januzaj centrally would be an excellent idea though, and obviously Kagawa needs to play at number 10. So I reckon a more narrow fornation is the way forward, like the 'diamond' employed by Fergie. In that system, our best midfield could line up with Carrick, Clev, Januzaj and Kagawa. This will mean we have 4 very capable passers of the ball, with at least 2 of them capable of some unpredictability (which we are massively missing at the moment) allowing us to carefully carve some chances out for a front two of RvP and Hernandez.

That's right, I said it. No Rooney.

His form aside, the fact he plays with his back to goal so often, insists on shooting from strange areas and runs down too many blind alleys means, for me, he shouldn't be there. He slows down our tempo, forces us to play in front of the oppositon defence and looks wide far too often (maybe a Moyesism), rather than towards one of the best strikers in the world.

But obviously that would never happen. Not whilst Moyes is publicly wanking him off.
Twat
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6 years ago

by Felwin » Mon Oct 28, 2013 2:00 am
But 3-4-1-2 wouldn't work for the precise reason you outlined about Evra. He's forgotten how to defend (forever?). You need to have stunning wing backs for it to work, maybe Rafa will be up to it, but ironically we would probably need Baines on the other side for it to even start to be effective.


But Evra could play exactly the same way as he always does but in a 3412 he would actually have another defender behind him for security.
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