Brexit

[Steggo]

Yea I agree- but it's really not relatively peaceful here at the minute. The threat level is severe -with numerous attacks on police and security forces frequently foiled which regularly never makes the news.
A border change will ignite the nationalists/republicans and whatever they do will be an excuse for the loyalists to stir trouble.
They hardly need an excuse- the flag protests and Ardoyne situation case in point

As it stands here at the minute, things are good for most people, if not good relatively peaceful. But there is still a minority on both sides who would take us back down that road. At the moment the main protagonist seem to be the hardline Republicans. Given that freedom of movement across the border has been the norm for years, any change to that will be seen as provocative. On the Loyalist side of the argument there has been a long standing belief that border checkpoints should be in place to stop the free movement of terrorists across the border. One incident of violence has the potential to reinvigorate the checkpoint argument thus stirring a hornets nest of emotions and feelings. I would bet that an out vote would play into the hands of those who want a united Ireland, they can carry out an attack abandon the car in the south and hey presto there will be calls for better security. Once that happens even on a small scale the situation as it exists now will be gradually undone. This is a very simple explanation of my point of view, the situation is way more complicated than that. Btw i grew up in a nationalist/republican area.

Thanks both of you. As an outsider I get the impression that things may be bubbling under the surface.The UK government has escalated the threat level from Ireland to the top level.There seems to be a resurgence of violence,albeit on smaller level,but it does seem to indicate that things are not right.I'm sure we don't get the whole picture here and most 'incidents' are not reported on the mainland.

Would checkpoints on the border really help anyway?I was always of the impression that terrorists from both sides had ways of bypassing those? Or am I just being ignorant? I can see their potential as a symbol for both sides.

[Snoopcousins]

The border Would be nigh impossible to 'police'... It would bring back the army to do it properly

[Lazarus]

The border Would be nigh impossible to 'police'... It would bring back the army to do it properly

And even then that never really worked and just provided target practise and a source of constant hassle that just bred resentment. What peace we have now is precarious. And does anyone, including the British government really need that shit again.

[bman2]

Yep... there's too many talking heads, too much scare mongering, and too little real world info useful to the layman to make the choice with your head... trust your heart Snoops...

There's an abundance of real world info. Literally libraries full of it. Contrary to all the bullshit about cloaked figures controlling the world from the undersea lair, the EU is extremely transparent and puts out mountains of documentation every year. But you don't want to hear it. When an economist talks about economics, you say "fuck off, smart ass, with your fucking knowledge".

You've got your head in the sand. The information is all there. Shit, you can get most of the main facts from Wikipedia without getting off your arse.

How about this:
The EU's total budget is about 1% of the EU zone's GDP, or about one sixth of just the UK's annual budget. So whatever the EU gets up to, it's comparatively minor in comparison whatever national governments get up to. If the EU is taking over, it's got a realllllly long way to go. How about all those bureaucrats pulling down huge salaries? Well, the EU's administrative budget is about 0.06% of the EU zone's GDP, so while it's undoubtedly true that there are some useless twats sucking at the teat, the amount of money we're talking about is trivial compared to the big picture. Incidentally, the entire EU's administrative/operations budget is less than half of that of the UK government's administrative/operations budget. So that cloaked cabal of unaccountable bureaucrats in Brussels that are imposing a dictatorship? Well it turns out that they are massively outnumbered and outspent by bureaucrats and politicians working in national governments. So if it's taken them half a century just to get this far, I think we've got a long time to go before we need to start worrying about the devious dictatorship project.

Oh shit, so there's the reality. A bunch of bureaucrats and technocrats working in office buildings who are working with a tiny fraction of the budget and resources of all the national governments. Oooooh. Scary.

Incidentally, I don't think the UKIP documentary linked to earlier in the thread even mentioned the Common Agricultural Policy, which makes up half of the EU's total budget. If you are seriously interested in how the EU spends its money, half of the fucking program should be about that. But of course they don't get into that, because it doesn't fit the narrative. Oh no, Scottish fishermen! Oh no, Tate & Lyle sugar company! Let's not mention the fact that the entire rest of the British food and agriculture sector does extremely well out of European integration. Particular tricky subject that for the Eurosceptic Tories, since the rural vote is essential to their electoral hopes, but British agriculture would be totally fucked without European markets and European subsidies.

They bang on about dictatorship ... but they're the shower using the cheesiest and cheapest fascist propaganda techniques. Notice dark, dramatic, foreboding music? Notice that the talking heads are only identified *very* selectively, because the video's producers know that if you knew who these pricks were, you'd never take them seriously. I recognized Farage though. Quality information source that film.

[Alfonso Bedoya]

Yep... there's too many talking heads, too much scare mongering, and too little real world info useful to the layman to make the choice with your head... trust your heart Snoops...

There's an abundance of real world info. Literally libraries full of it. Contrary to all the bullshit about cloaked figures controlling the world from the undersea lair, the EU is extremely transparent and puts out mountains of documentation every year. But you don't want to hear it. When an economist talks about economics, you say "fuck off, smart ass, with your fucking knowledge".

You've got your head in the sand. The information is all there. Shit, you can get most of the main facts from Wikipedia without getting off your arse.

How about this:
The EU's total budget is about 1% of the EU zone's GDP, or about one sixth of just the UK's annual budget. So whatever the EU gets up to, it's comparatively minor in comparison whatever national governments get up to. If the EU is taking over, it's got a realllllly long way to go. How about all those bureaucrats pulling down huge salaries? Well, the EU's administrative budget is about 0.06% of the EU zone's GDP, so while it's undoubtedly true that there are some useless twats sucking at the teat, the amount of money we're talking about is trivial compared to the big picture. Incidentally, the entire EU's administrative/operations budget is less than half of that of the UK government's administrative/operations budget. So that cloaked cabal of unaccountable bureaucrats in Brussels that are imposing a dictatorship? Well it turns out that they are massively outnumbered and outspent by bureaucrats and politicians working in national governments. So if it's taken them half a century just to get this far, I think we've got a long time to go before we need to start worrying about the devious dictatorship project.

Oh shit, so there's the reality. A bunch of bureaucrats and technocrats working in office buildings who are working with a tiny fraction of the budget and resources of all the national governments. Oooooh. Scary.

Incidentally, I don't think the UKIP documentary linked to earlier in the thread even mentioned the Common Agricultural Policy, which makes up half of the EU's total budget. If you are seriously interested in how the EU spends its money, half of the fucking program should be about that. But of course they don't get into that, because it doesn't fit the narrative. Oh no, Scottish fishermen! Oh no, Tate & Lyle sugar company! Let's not mention the fact that the entire rest of the British food and agriculture sector does extremely well out of European integration. Particular tricky subject that for the Eurosceptic Tories, since the rural vote is essential to their electoral hopes, but British agriculture would be totally fucked without European markets and European subsidies.

They bang on about dictatorship ... but they're the shower using the cheesiest and cheapest fascist propaganda techniques. Notice dark, dramatic, foreboding music? Notice that the talking heads are only identified *very* selectively, because the video's producers know that if you knew who these pricks were, you'd never take them seriously. I recognized Farage though. Quality information source that film.

Listen up you smarmy fuckin cunt, because this is the last time I respond to you on any of this... I'll assume from what you wrote, that you're either an economist, or at least well educated on the subject... I'm not, and neither is the vast majority, so for you to sit there quoting facts, figures and percents, with that arrogant attitude, on the sort of shit most people only see on the BBC business report, just before we switch the channel, shows your ignorance, not mine...

You think I'm a fool for believing in a corporate conspiracy... for doubting the advice of such upstanding sorts as Cameron, Osborne, Alan Sugar, etc, etc, etc,... haha, whatever...

The fact is, you'll never win this argument, not with me anyway... not because you're wrong... like I said, you're obviously more knowledgeable about it than I am, so you might well be right... but just because, you don't seem to be able to make your case without gobbing off like a loudmouth arsehole!

[bman2]

"vote with your emotions". Says it all.

Nope. Not an economist. I got all those facts and figures, as I indicated... from Wikipedia. I'm just numerate and took the effort to spend 30-45 minutes educating myself.

So you're totally full of shit. "There's no data". Pure shite. You haven't even tried to educate yourself on something you claim to think is very important. "vote with your emotions" -- a very succinct distillation of fascist political theory. And what emotions are you engulfed in? Anger, resentment, fear. You're being so played by right wing propaganda, it's fucking sad. Go outside. Visit Brussels. Europe's actually quite a nice place, and most of the people there are just putting a shift in doing a public service.

[Alfonso Bedoya]

"vote with your emotions". Says it all.

Nope. Not an economist. I got all those facts and figures, as I indicated... from Wikipedia. I'm just numerate and took the effort to spend 30-45 minutes educating myself.

So you're totally full of shit. "There's no data". Pure shite. You haven't even tried to educate yourself on something you claim to think is very important. "vote with your emotions" -- a very succinct distillation of fascist political theory. And what emotions are you engulfed in? Anger, resentment, fear. You're being so played by right wing propaganda, it's fucking sad. Go outside. Visit Brussels. Europe's actually quite a nice place, and most of the people there are just putting a shift in doing a public service.

Ha, yeah, quality... I've never travelled, know nothing about life outside of little England... I'm a racist cunt... I don't read enough economic reports... I watch too much fascist propaganda... anything else??? don't stop now, you're rolling... come on Bernie, flex your intellect some more...

[bman2]

"vote with your feelings"

[Alfonso Bedoya]

Lead with your chin...

[Steggo]

How about this:
The EU's total budget is about 1% of the EU zone's GDP, or about one sixth of just the UK's annual budget. So whatever the EU gets up to, it's comparatively minor in comparison whatever national governments get up to. If the EU is taking over, it's got a realllllly long way to go. How about all those bureaucrats pulling down huge salaries? Well, the EU's administrative budget is about 0.06% of the EU zone's GDP, so while it's undoubtedly true that there are some useless twats sucking at the teat, the amount of money we're talking about is trivial compared to the big picture. Incidentally, the entire EU's administrative/operations budget is less than half of that of the UK government's administrative/operations budget. So that cloaked cabal of unaccountable bureaucrats in Brussels that are imposing a dictatorship? Well it turns out that they are massively outnumbered and outspent by bureaucrats and politicians working in national governments. So if it's taken them half a century just to get this far, I think we've got a long time to go before we need to start worrying about the devious dictatorship project.

Oh shit, so there's the reality. A bunch of bureaucrats and technocrats working in office buildings who are working with a tiny fraction of the budget and resources of all the national governments. Oooooh. Scary.T

I think you miss the point. Its not the fact there are unelected bureaucrats working for the EU or that they cost this or that much of GDP. They could work in a cupboard and be on £2 a week or have a staff of millions at 10 times GDP. The fact there is an unelected tier of 'government' is bad enough But worse,far worse than that is the power they hold. The ability to dictate to properly elected governments is astounding and if you don't think that indicates that Europe is heading towards being a 'Super state' then you are sadly misguided. Its what the Americans want and it is what the real powers in Europe want. And I'll reiterate- we never signed up for this,we were never consulted about this and we were never given a vote on it.

'This challenge to the sovereignty of the UK Parliament was at first limited by the modest scope of the European Communities, which were seen in the UK as little more than sophisticated free trade areas. However, increasingly after 1986, the Communities have transformed themselves into a Union which has some of the attributes of a Federal States and is certainly more than an international agreement. This change was especially signalled by the Treaty on European Union in 1992, often referred to as the Maastricht Treaty, and signed by 15 Member States (Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg (the Benelux countries); Germany, France, Italy, Greece, Spain, Portugal, Ireland, Denmark, Austria, Sweden, Finland, and the UK). The European Union now covers many aspects of our lives such as agriculture, transport, workers' rights, (see Eurotext: Employment Policy pages) and competition. It grants a form of citizenship to the people of Europe, and there are ambitious plans for a common currency which will in turn require harmonized economies'.