Re: Manchester, and now London

Political Debate
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Lazarus
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3 years ago

redzebs wrote:Someone has to be the voice of reason?

Seriously though, you're missing my point, fine I was trying to be tactful because I love London and most of my friends are there but I think Northerners in my experience and that I've known are tougher/more practical, don't know, cant quite find the right phase but you get my drift, harder, than Southerners in England, just an observation.
I don't get this at all Zebs. When people are blown up you think that Northerners handle it better than Southerners? Why is being harder, tougher even a thing for you? As i've said i doubt the people affected are feeling very hard or tough.
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Lazarus
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3 years ago

redzebs wrote:
Sid wrote:
redzebs wrote:Rant, turning every tragedy into a fierce debate since 2010. Every time. Like, every time.
You can't have political violence like this and not mention politics though, can't talk about it in a void. There's a time for grieving like but it's not long before you start thinking how do we stop a fucking horrific thing like this from happening, and that's when you have to deal with politics
Didn't say I disagreed with anyone, only that when something happens in the world and a thread is opened, it takes about two pages before everyone's rowing. I agree there needs to be discussions. But for example until the dust settles, I'm more interested to know that now we know it was directly IS claimed, not IS inspired, and seems to have been a fuckin really strong massive impact blast compared to some of the shot we've seen, before we get into the politics which we will. The attacker was British so was he in Syria and did he make it himself or is there an IS professional IED maker still free because that's an awful lot of knowledge experience etc. to risk on one belt/rucksack. Initially I personally want to know should we potentially expect more before the dust settles and we debate everything.

Also once we get to debating, can someone remember in case I forgot, Trump calling the bomber a loser repeatedly, ok if it's your own country but with different standards, ideologies, ethics, ways of speaking about tragedy, thought it was a bit too much over our line sticking your nose in crass despite intentions. Anyone else see that?
When i hear that from him it feels exactly the same as the rhetoric i've heard for years from politicians here, "We'll never give in to terror", "we will not negotiate with terrorists", "we'll never let terrorists change our values", "there'll be no hiding place for terrorists and those that support them". Bullshit and bluster.
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Sid
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3 years ago

Guardiola's missus and kid or kids were there apparently
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marlon
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3 years ago

Snoopcousins wrote:
Lazarus wrote:
Snoopcousins wrote:I honestly don't get all this "it's our fault, we brought it on ourselves" stuff....
Maybe I'm not as politically astute as some on here but I think that's bullcrap...
Yes maybe we don't need to get involved in everything around the world but these people believe in their "cause" and Christianity is in the way of that

The only way I see us bringing anything on ourselves is letting everyone and anyone into the UK and not kicking out those that we know are inciting hatred and stirring things up- they can't live here and also preach against the ways of the UK.
But you don't see anything wrong with Britain letting itself into other peoples countries, taking over and then calling the people who lived there terrorists... "I honestly don't get all this "it's our fault, we brought it on ourselves" stuff...." Remember Maggie called Mandela a terrorist, remember the Queen meeting Martin McGuinness?
Don't remember seeing any UK attacks targeting just innocent people....

Plenty of people think Mandela is a terrorist including my family (I am African)....
I'm not a fan of Queen meeting McGuiness but can see why was done.
Only issues I see are maybe getting involved in too many squabbles and trying to fix places that are way too complicated
Is it the 'just' that's important there? How much collateral damage is acceptable to you? We destroyed Iraq to get one man (or oil, but the excuse was Saddam's a baddie). (What do you think war is?) And the thousands of drone attacks across the middle east and africa that we hear nothing about? We're not even at war, we're just murdering innocent people all over the world. Ad no bad pr for the government because our soldiers lives aren't at risk.

We don't just tear families apart, we destroy infrastructure - education, food supplies, hospitals. The majority of endless 'lost generations' are peaceful - they're just trying to survive. But you create millions of people who have no hope for their future, it's not surprising some turn to violence. And then we sell weapons to countries who we know support terrorists. This isn't something that's just happening to us, we're playing a role in radicalising and arming them. And then our media gives every terrorist a week of non-stop coverage - the glorious infamy they want.

On the immigration/deportation point. Who is the 'everyone' we're letting in? You want a muslim ban? And where do you deport british citizens to? And the 'ways of the UK' is an extraordinarily broad term to suppress free speech. No suffragettes (who were also terrorists), no abolilitionism, no democracy. We've hardly reached some utopic peak.

Also curious to know what you've got against Mandela?
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Snoopcousins
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3 years ago

It's more the "free speech" ones who openly incite hatred etc while living in the U.K...taking the benefits of working here yet preaching their evil.
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redzebs
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3 years ago

Lazarus wrote:
redzebs wrote:
Sid wrote:
redzebs wrote:Rant, turning every tragedy into a fierce debate since 2010. Every time. Like, every time.
You can't have political violence like this and not mention politics though, can't talk about it in a void. There's a time for grieving like but it's not long before you start thinking how do we stop a fucking horrific thing like this from happening, and that's when you have to deal with politics
Didn't say I disagreed with anyone, only that when something happens in the world and a thread is opened, it takes about two pages before everyone's rowing. I agree there needs to be discussions. But for example until the dust settles, I'm more interested to know that now we know it was directly IS claimed, not IS inspired, and seems to have been a fuckin really strong massive impact blast compared to some of the shot we've seen, before we get into the politics which we will. The attacker was British so was he in Syria and did he make it himself or is there an IS professional IED maker still free because that's an awful lot of knowledge experience etc. to risk on one belt/rucksack. Initially I personally want to know should we potentially expect more before the dust settles and we debate everything.

Also once we get to debating, can someone remember in case I forgot, Trump calling the bomber a loser repeatedly, ok if it's your own country but with different standards, ideologies, ethics, ways of speaking about tragedy, thought it was a bit too much over our line sticking your nose in crass despite intentions. Anyone else see that?
When i hear that from him it feels exactly the same as the rhetoric i've heard for years from politicians here, "We'll never give in to terror", "we will not negotiate with terrorists", "we'll never let terrorists change our values", "there'll be no hiding place for terrorists and those that support them". Bullshit and bluster.

Aye but every Western developed country usually tries to put on a stiff upper lip when another is attacked, especially if it's your country but just his speech and the modern slightly more crass way talking about losers etc. was just a bit cringeworthy.

Fuck me, right ok, I'm sorry I even mentioned the Northern Southern thing, I was just making an observation that that stereotype of saying what needs to be said and no more and a really dry, to the point were until you get to know them, can make you wonder what you've done to piss them off or do they just not talk much stereotype of Mancunians came through in a lot of interviews.

Some of my Manc mates are dry as fuck but once you get to know them they are a proper laugh.

It wasn't a massive deal, I was just pointing it out after watching a guy from Manchester talk about getting blown 30 feet across a room in a tone he could have been telling ya what he had planned for tea. That's it. That's my whole point regarding that. Just thought it was a thing worth mentioning.
Well I suppose that's the knighthood fucked.
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Alfonso Bedoya
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3 years ago

marlon wrote:
Snoopcousins wrote:
Lazarus wrote:
Snoopcousins wrote:I honestly don't get all this "it's our fault, we brought it on ourselves" stuff....
Maybe I'm not as politically astute as some on here but I think that's bullcrap...
Yes maybe we don't need to get involved in everything around the world but these people believe in their "cause" and Christianity is in the way of that

The only way I see us bringing anything on ourselves is letting everyone and anyone into the UK and not kicking out those that we know are inciting hatred and stirring things up- they can't live here and also preach against the ways of the UK.
But you don't see anything wrong with Britain letting itself into other peoples countries, taking over and then calling the people who lived there terrorists... "I honestly don't get all this "it's our fault, we brought it on ourselves" stuff...." Remember Maggie called Mandela a terrorist, remember the Queen meeting Martin McGuinness?
Don't remember seeing any UK attacks targeting just innocent people....

Plenty of people think Mandela is a terrorist including my family (I am African)....
I'm not a fan of Queen meeting McGuiness but can see why was done.
Only issues I see are maybe getting involved in too many squabbles and trying to fix places that are way too complicated
Is it the 'just' that's important there? How much collateral damage is acceptable to you? We destroyed Iraq to get one man (or oil, but the excuse was Saddam's a baddie). (What do you think war is?) And the thousands of drone attacks across the middle east and africa that we hear nothing about? We're not even at war, we're just murdering innocent people all over the world. Ad no bad pr for the government because our soldiers lives aren't at risk.

We don't just tear families apart, we destroy infrastructure - education, food supplies, hospitals. The majority of endless 'lost generations' are peaceful - they're just trying to survive. But you create millions of people who have no hope for their future, it's not surprising some turn to violence. And then we sell weapons to countries who we know support terrorists. This isn't something that's just happening to us, we're playing a role in radicalising and arming them. And then our media gives every terrorist a week of non-stop coverage - the glorious infamy they want.

On the immigration/deportation point. Who is the 'everyone' we're letting in? You want a muslim ban? And where do you deport british citizens to? And the 'ways of the UK' is an extraordinarily broad term to suppress free speech. No suffragettes (who were also terrorists), no abolilitionism, no democracy. We've hardly reached some utopic peak.

Also curious to know what you've got against Mandela?
Top Rant, that...
"Badges, to god-damned hell with badges! We have no badges. In fact, we don't need badges. I don't have to show you any stinking badges, you god-damned cabrón and ching' tu madre! Come out from that shit-hole of yours. I have to speak to you."
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bman2
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3 years ago

redzebs wrote: Also once we get to debating, can someone remember in case I forgot, Trump calling the bomber a loser repeatedly, ok if it's your own country but with different standards, ideologies, ethics, ways of speaking about tragedy, thought it was a bit too much over our line sticking your nose in crass despite intentions. Anyone else see that?
The man's just an embarrassment, lowers the tone of anything he touches.
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Alfonso Bedoya
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3 years ago

Snoopcousins wrote:It's more the "free speech" ones who openly incite hatred etc while living in the U.K...taking the benefits of working here yet preaching their evil.
What do you think George Bush, Tony Blair, Dick Chaney, etc are doing when they go on national telly, telling a crock of lies, to drum up support to invade countries, they've no business interfering with...???

It doesn't get any more evil than that...
"Badges, to god-damned hell with badges! We have no badges. In fact, we don't need badges. I don't have to show you any stinking badges, you god-damned cabrón and ching' tu madre! Come out from that shit-hole of yours. I have to speak to you."
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redzebs
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3 years ago

bman2 wrote:
redzebs wrote: Also once we get to debating, can someone remember in case I forgot, Trump calling the bomber a loser repeatedly, ok if it's your own country but with different standards, ideologies, ethics, ways of speaking about tragedy, thought it was a bit too much over our line sticking your nose in crass despite intentions. Anyone else see that?
The man's just an embarrassment, lowers the tone of anything he touches.

It was really cheesy and uncomfortable
Well I suppose that's the knighthood fucked.
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